Topic started by Kumar Kumarappan (@ adsl-64-164-9-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on Tue Aug 28 02:50:24 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Dating sangam literature has not been a contentious issue. It has generally been accepted that it is around first century C.E. A new publication is challenging that idea. It argues that 'the poetic tradition was developed by the PaaNTiyas in the ninth or tenth century. ... ... the identification of the various genres of Cankam poetry with literary types from the Sanskrit Kaavya tradition ... indicates that in Cankam poetry Tamil has been specifically assigned the role of a Praakrit. .. '. Dejavu.

I have spoken to two scholars who see no merit in that proposition and give me the impression that it is not even worth a serious discussion. Never the less for academic interests, the publication is - Title: Kaavya in South India: Old Tamil Cankam Poetry.
Author: Herman Tieken. Publ.: Groningen: Egbert Forsten, 2001

In the first post below I give the controversial contents of the back cover. In the second post below I attach thoughts from Professor.George Hart. The second post is rather long. But since this is not available in any easily accessible WEB page, I hope I can be pardoned for the long post, as opposed to a link.
--kumAr

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Kumar Kumarappan (@ adsl-64-170-120-255.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on: Fri Sep 21 02:57:16
  
  Sreekishen:
  That was disturbing. We are supposed to be living in a great and the most open country in the world. And I truly do believe it. It just shows even 'the most open country' is still far from perfect. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, where diversity is the norm. Even here I read report of hate crimes as retaliation. The tragedy of 6000+ innocent civilian lives being lost in a couple of hours is not something to be taken lightly. Yet, the harsh language and the excessive rhetoric from our president, could be more measured to instill a desire for a more 'fair justice'.
  
  Anyway, take care. There is a saying in Tamil, 'only if you have a canvas, can you paint'. These pursuits will be more meaningful only after your safety is assured. Taking care of your security and other basic needs is the need of the hour. Good luck. We can meet in better times ahead.
  
  --kumAr
  
  
• From: ravi sundaram (@ 192.149.1.187) on: Fri Sep 21 09:33:56
  
  Sreekishen, Sorry to hear some misguided people attacked you. It will be and should be condemened by all the fair minded people. But let us not forget the severity of the provacation. Never before so many American civilans lost their lives in a single day due to actions of foreigner. Last time American mainland was invaded by the a foreign power was before 1820. And the invaders were British. It shows how matured and how well behaved American public is, that every politician urged caution and restraint and warned about hasty judgements.
  
  We too are the victims of the terrorists. If John Q Public looks at me suspciously, or throws a brick through my window, I blame the terrorists, not the ignorance of ordinary Americans. But it is hard on you, you have to pack up and move. My best wishes. Hope we will find a way to heal somehow.
  
  
• From: -/r. (@ 129.81.206.10) on: Fri Sep 21 12:14:51
  
  Ravisundaram,
  While I agree with you in how matured the most of American public is in restrain itself from acting in a hasty fashion, I find the statement, "I blame the terrorists, not the ignorance of ordinary Americans " is not right. This is because, a considerable portion of American public I see in the south lament this destruction with a feeling, "It can be in Elsewhere, but how it can be in US!" This makes me feel like the American public thinking of anyone out of US has a low human-life value than that of an American. It also equally distrubs me like the insane acts of killing this big number of people. The media also pour the gas to this feeling. I feel like the unknown public treated a foreigner with a inferior feeling injected with ignorance. [Then, if it had been my country, the backlash would have already killed another innocent thousands:-(]
  
  
• From: anu (@ ) on: Mon Oct 22 05:04:38
  
  Dear Kumar,
  
  First apologies for the delay. I had to resort to google search to locate this thread :)
  
  I have recently came across some info on Aindram, hence this post. I saw the reference in the introduction to a popular work in malayalam. But before that, here's the reference to Aindram which I'd mentioned earlier:
  http://www.tamil.net/list/1999-01/msg00045.html
  
  Now the introduction to the work says that the Ramayana(by Valmiki) Balakanda mentions Aindram as one of the works studied by Rama in the course of his education. In fact, Aindram happens to be one among the nine famous Sanskrit grammar works, commonly referred to as 'nava-vyakarana'.
  
  Before I add anything further to this, let me say that I'm not interested in the politics usually associated nowadays with such works of antiquity :) The Ramayana is a work that was modified continuously thru hundreds of years, hence it is quite possible that this reference is a later interpolation, probably after Buddhist missionaries from the north had established extensive contacts with the South. But if that were the case, then it should follow that such close contacts must have existed before the 2nd CE, which is the latest date assigned to the Ramayana. Would like to know your opinion on this,
  
  
• From: Kumar Kumarappan (@ adsl-64-164-11-190.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on: Sat Oct 27 18:14:35
  
  Nice to hear from you Anu.
  
  The post that you provided pointers for is by Mani, a good friend of mine. I interpret the essence of that post as posing more questions and soliciting more dialogue. It is an area where the answers are not definitive. For some, proving 'antiquity' is a tool to assign 'credit' as source works for other cross cultural works. And I agree with you on the unwarranted exercise of proving 'antiquity'.
  
  I was interested to know if the work 'Aindram' itself is available, or just references to it. Any clues?
  
  If you were soliciting opinions on cross cultural contacts between the South and the Vedic culture, it is a complex answer from me. I have no doubt in my mind that it existed even before the advent of common era. There is ample evidence and references to it in both cultures. But the extent and nature of the contact is the one that is important and interesting. I tend to believe the common wisdom that the Sangam period reflects a society with a value system that is drastically different from the society that it evolved into in later years. Traces of this transformation can be seen in works at the tail end of Sangam (or even post-sangam?) like Silappadikaram. The transformation is complete and well rooted by the time the Bakthi period is ushered in and rolls on. This new transformed society reflected a value system which is a mix of the cultures of the South and the Vedic culture.
  
  --kumAr
  
  
  
• From: srivi (@ ) on: Tue Aug 5 13:17:52
  
  I believe 'Aindram' is a tamil work and it is available in publication , published by the Govt of Tamilnadu in 1986. Dr Ganapathi Sthapathi says it deals with teh science of energy, space, time, form and beauty. I have not read the book. The stapathy said that the book is available at the mammalapuram sculpture college, I do not know if it is available elsewhere
  
  
• From: srivi (@ ) on: Tue Aug 5 13:20:54
  
  I believe 'Aindram' is a tamil work and it is available in publication , published by the Govt of Tamilnadu in 1986. Dr Ganapathi Sthapathi says it deals with teh science of energy, space, time, form and beauty. I have not read the book. The stapathy said that the book is available at the mammalapuram sculpture college, I do not know if it is available elsewhere
  
  
• From: Sri Nivasan (@ 203.115.31.44) on: Wed Aug 6 06:40:34 EDT 2003
  
  Sangam is dated with Mahavansa of Sinhalese Buddhist Hierachy which is only a religious book.It has two kings coinciding with Senguttavan one in 1st and other in 10th.
  
  I strongly believe those Sangha literature is translations from Tamil Prakrit to rising Tamil vernacular with the rise of Chola empire
  
  
• From: Sri Nivasan (@ 203.115.31.44) on: Wed Aug 6 06:45:11 EDT 2003
  
  Sangam is dated with Mahavansa of Sinhalese Buddhist Hierachy which is only a religious book.It has two kings coinciding with Senguttavan one in 1st and other in 10th.
  
  I strongly believe those Sangha literature is translations from Tamil Prakrit to rising Tamil vernacular with the rise of Chola empire
  
  

Want to post a response?