Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Apr 11 15:21:06 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am guessing that Periyaar was NOT the first thamizhan to advocate 'kadavuL illai'. Can we discuss other thamizh historical beliefs along the lines of atheism?

Responses:

• From: Raveen (@ user1557.lv.sprint-hsd.net) on: Wed Apr 11 15:59:10
  
  "Periyaar was NOT the first thamizhan " -> Periyar is a Kannadiga :-)
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Thu Apr 12 09:50:31
  
  Raveen: But isn't the entire human race, originally thamizh? Please check with Rajinder Chakravarthy (and some other "authorities"):-) :-)
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ user1557.lv.sprint-hsd.net) on: Thu Apr 12 11:08:27
  
  So this is supposed to be a flame thread, sorry for the intrusion :-(
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.208) on: Thu Apr 12 13:19:20
  
  Raveen: No No No!!!! I just reacted to your post and unnecessarily dragged RC's name (and references to other topics). Sorry about that tasteless diversion. The intention is NOT to deviate from the topic of atheism, NOR to get into another flame war. Please continue.
  
  
  
• From: Sreekishen nair (@ spider-tl044.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 15 15:19:23
  
  Hey there my friends,
  Well, i think this is an interesting Subject here... Atheism in Tamil culture before Periyar... hmmm....
  One could, in a loose fashion, say that Buddhism is an "Atheistic religion" (i know that sounds rather contradictory, but please bear with me). Buddhism is the only organized religion that i know of which admits that God(s) are created by humans, and for Human purposes... Even Christianity, Judaism and Islam, for all their rhetoric against idolotry, have such well developed personalities constituting their gods that, although they have no idols, the extremely concrete and personalized image of God as represented in their texts and/or articulated in their sermons provides them with a "conceptual idol" (as opposed to a physical idol), for lack of a better term. Buddhism is the only organized religion that i know of that says flat out "we made God in our own image" and not vice-versa.
  Some Buddhists believe in gods, yes, but Buddhists texts claim that the gods are just another category of being, and are as caught up in the Wheel of Samsara as any of we vulnerable mortals..., they are not the sole authorities of the Cosmos in Buddhist belief. In Buddhist philosophy, the attainment of Enlightenment constitutes being in a state where one transcends godhead, and the necessity for god(s) is no longer imperative. Vajrayana Buddhists, who have a number of deities, claim that their Deities are not actual beings or persons to be propitiated, they do dont dispense blessings or curse the unfaithfull, they are not to be worshiped... they are ideals to be attained, images whose nature is more heiroglyphic than actual, they are to be meditated upon rather than worshipped, and it would be a grave mistake to assume that they are actual deities... texts on Buddhists mysticism warn against this. In fact many of their "gods" are shown trampling on the supine bodies of Hindu gods and the deities of other religions: Chakrasamvararaja and Vajrayogini trample on the bodies of Maheshwara and Uma, as well as on Kama and Rati, Vignantanka tramples on Ganesha, Hayagriva tramples on the whole Trimurti and their wives, and practically all of these beings are shown carrying the severed head of Brahma. Additionally, most Vajrayana deities are said to have been manifested by other Buddhas (that is, human beings who attained enlightenment) or Bodhisatvas (human beings who attained enlightenment yet renounce release from Samsara in order to help others) for the express purpose of subduing the gods who had been oppressing humans, deluding them from attaining enlightenment and demanding sacrifices. In Buddhists philosophy, the gods are seen as antagonists on the path to realization, they desire to be considered the sole regents of the universe and are quite jealous of their position, so they constantly try to delude humans into thinking they have found enlightenment by revealing their own glories to them... and this temptation the aspirant has to be constantly on gaurd for.
  Normal lay-Buddhists are free to worship the gods and the Buddha(s) and the idealised virtues (such as the Vajrayana deities) as if they were actual deities, as it is taken for granted that they are in that position where worshipping the gods is practical and necceserry, they have not sought enlightenment so in their reality, gods are important. But those seeking enlightenment (e.g. aspirants such as Bhikkus) are encouraged to renounce every god, even the Buddha himself, as a divinity... there is a Chinese Buddhist saying that states "If you see the Buddha on the Road (to Enlightenment) Strike him down!" and another Buddhist saying that claims "What is the Buddha? Dried excrement!"... the philosophy is a well developed system that includes existential, atheistic and nihilistic elements within it. Now remember, i am talking more about Buddhist mysticism as opposed to the religion as it is practiced by its lay worshippers, as for the lay community, the gods are real and the Bodhisatvas are divinities whose aid is sought.
  I know Buddhist mysticism is not specifically Tamil, but there was a period of time when Buddhism was quite prevalent in South India, so prevalent that Hindus felt threatened enough to persecute them and drive them away. The Buddhist philosopher who developed the the Chinese Chi-Kung practices of Taoism and Buddhism was a South Indian who fled South India for China, he is refered to as Bo-Dharma and in Chinese iconography is shown as a dark-skinned and hairy man.
  Hindu tradition has also had an aspect that includes atheistic, nihilistic or existential elements within it. The practice of Jnana Yoga reqires that one step beyond the need for having gods. One can only become a Sanyasi by overcomming the gods first. Like Buddhism, this philosophy holds that gods constitute a barrier to the realization of enlightenment and release from the Wheel of Birth and Death. Is it any wonder that in many Hindu myths, Sanyasis are sometimes portrayed as even more pwerful than the gods, and have the ability to deal irreversable curses and blessings even on the Trimurthi themselves.
  I think these types show, not so much atheism as we understand it today, but a comparable tradition which, like modern atheism, involves renouncing the gods and seeing them and their worship as antagonistic to the well being of humans and other living creatures.
  
  
• From: P.N.Kumar (@ ip28-55.cbn.net.id) on: Sun Apr 15 19:38:53
  
  I know Buddhist mysticism is not specifically Tamil, but there was a period of time when Buddhism was quite prevalent in South India, so prevalent that Hindus felt threatened enough to persecute them and drive them away. The Buddhist philosopher who developed the the Chinese Chi-Kung practices of Taoism and Buddhism was a South Indian who fled South India for China, he is refered to as Bo-Dharma and in Chinese iconography is shown as a dark-skinned and hairy man.''
  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  
  Dear Sreekishen
  
  The founder of Zen (Chinese - Chan) Buddhism - BodhiDharma - is a Tamil, from Kanchipuram - near Madras. He went to China in the 5th Century and established a meditation center near the famous Shaolin Temple. In fact the very word Zen is from Dhyanam / Meditation.
  
  Why did he go all the way to China? Well, this is the first question a Zen Guru would ask his disciple. I'm writing a sort of short story on this.
  
  
• From: Sreekishen nair (@ spider-mtc-te062.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 15 20:51:08
  
  Dear PN Kumar..
  Hello, i hope you are well... yes, the Bo Dharma i was refering to is that very same BodhiDharma from Kanchipuram... he is sometimes refered to as BoDharma. Most martial art practices (Ba-Gua, Hsing-Yi, Tai-Chi) as well as Taoist kinetic meditations (Chi-Kung) are alleged to have been Developed by this man. The guru of my ex-boyfriends Hsing-Yi class has said that Bo-Dharma fled South India because of religious persecution... but i have also heard it said that he left out of a missionary zeal... maybe you could throw some light on this from your own research... i would be very interested to know... so lets keep in touch about that, okay? You can contact me via email... and i would be quite excited to see any postings you may have on this matter in the forum... BodhiDharma would actually make an interesting topic for a new thread.
  
  
• From: Mano (@ www2.itd.uts.edu.au) on: Sun Apr 15 20:57:01
  
  Sreekishen Nair,
  
  "I know Buddhist mysticism is not specifically Tamil, but there was a period of time when Buddhism was quite prevalent in South India, so prevalent that Hindus felt threatened enough to persecute them and drive them away".
  
  Persecution was a comon faeture in Tamilnadu, and it depended on the religious alignment of the King. E.g saivites get persecuted during Jain rule and vice versa.
  
  One of the major reasons for the decline of Buddhism in India was due to its centralisation. This made it easy for invading muslims to destroy its learning centres in Taxila , Nalanda etc.
  
  In the case of Tamilnadu, Buddhism lost it popularity because of the rise in the Tamil bhakti movement started by the saivite and vaisnavite saints.
  
  Bodhidharma left Kanchipuram (a major centre of Buddhism in Tamilnadu) long before Tamilnadu reverted to Hinduism & introduced the Shaolin martial art in China.
  
  Taosim and Buddhism are two separate belief systems. Taosim existed long before the arrival of Buddhism in China.
  
  
• From: Sreekishen nair (@ spider-mtc-ti031.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 22 16:03:38
  
  Dear Mano, Kumar and everyone else,
  I hope you are all well...
  I just looked up some things about Bodhidharma in a book by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming concerning the Chi-Kung practices which Bodhidharma (called Da Mo in Chinese) is said to have invented. I would like to share these if i may.
  According to this book, Mano is correct, Da Mo left India long before Buddhist had begun to be persecuted more cruelly by Vedic Revivalists (e.g. Sankaracharya), or before Bhakthi movements became more popular forms of religious expression. According to Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Da Mo, whose name was Sardili apparently, was invitied to China by the Chinese emporers themselves. The Chinese, who at the time were becoming heavily influenced by Buddhism, apparently saw India as a type of spiritual center (much in the same way Westerners saw Rome or Jerusalem as sprirtual centers or Muslims in disparate parts of the world see Mecca). These emporers sent priests to India and invited priests from India for intercultural dialoging on Buddhism. That is apparently how Da Mo came to China. He developed the martial art forms and Chi-Kung excercises after having seen how Shaolin Buddhist monks were in extremely poor health since their severe austerities required them to neglect their bodies. He developed these forms with the aim of helping the monks to become more healthier physically. These forms demonstrate a strong Taoist influnce, and both Buddhists and Taoists, though members of separate religions, have added their own elaborations and contributions to these forms.
  Okay, Da Mo is a fascinating subject, but maybe we can dedicate a separate thread to him. I mean, this thread was started with the aim of discussing examples of atheism in ancient Tamil or Indian History. I brought up Buddhism in my first post since it appears to me that many Buddhist doctrines aimed at Buddhists aspirants (as opposed to Buddhist laity) seem to have a tendancy towards something resembling a spiritual or enlightened form of atheism and existentialism. I know it must sound rather contradictory or absurd to describe the same subject with the words "spiritual" and "atheistic" at the same time, but Buddhism does seem to have elements of both.
  Buddhism is the only religion i know of that reminds people that gods are invented by humans for human purposes. In the Vajrayana text of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the departed is told that he or she will see many wonderous and fantastic images... gods, Buddhas, Bodhisatvas, Herukas, ancestors, spirits and all sorts of orders of beings will present themselves to the conciousness of the recently departed. And they present themselves in a fantastic array of forms and lights and sounds and colors. Yet the text always reminds the departed that these figures are simply an illusion: they are the play of ones own mind, and that one must ground oneself in this realization in order to reach a state where one will not be reborn again. Being moved by any one of the fantastic displays presented to ones conciousness only ensures rebirth in a life whose form corresponds to the illusion that one has been moved by.
  Enlightenment means overcomming the need for gods, or even the need for the Buddha, in this philosophy. As i stated before, a Chinese Buddhist saying warns the aspirant that "If you see the Buddha on the road (to enlightenment), strike him down"... in other words, one must be able to release onself from attachment to and/or spiritual dependance upon any deity, including the Buddha, and that the Buddha would want it that way since he did not want to be considered a god. Gods and a deified Buddha are seen as neccessery for the laity and for many of the earlier stages of spiritual aspiration. But as one becomes more and more enlightened, dependence on these beings becomes less and less a priority, and eventually must be dispensed with all together.
  I also see a similar philosophy in some elements of Jnana Yoga. In this philosophy, again, one is required to eventually renounce the gods and dependance upon them. Gods are recognized (as in Buddhism) as an order of being, but as the sanyasin becomes more grounded in enlightenment, he becomes more powerful than the gods, because he knows the secret of their divinity. He is grounded in the "Impersonal Absolute", a concept far too abstracted to be called a divility as such. This gives the Sanyasin presedence over even the highest gods. Remember, Hindu mythology is not by any means short of tales in which the gods are cursed, blessed and/or ultimately superseded by high ranking Sanyasis.
  
  
• From: Lindsey (@ adsl-157-238-189.jax.bellsouth.net) on: Tue May 6 13:33:57
  
  Hi I was just doing a search and came to this page. Does anyone know the relationship of Kama and Rati in Buddhism. Example: Kurukulla is Red Tara.
  
  
• From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417546-174.austin.rr.com) on: Wed May 7 01:18:18 EDT 2003
  
  Kama is the god of Love in Hinduism. Rati is his wife. Actually, many Hindu gods got exported into Mahayana Buddhism. You see references to Hindu gods in 15th Century Chinese literature.
  
  Even in Japan, you have Japanese versions of Lakshmi - the hindu goddess of wealth.
  
  

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