Topic started by K.janarthanan (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on Sat Jun 14 01:54:33 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Was Shiva a Dravidian God? Or was he developed from the vedic Rudra? And did the Mohenjo-daro residents worshipped Him as Rice lord( Thirunellaiyappar)?

Responses:

• From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417534-176.austin.rr.com) on: Sat Jun 14 02:56:18 EDT 2003
  
  Sivan appears rather late in Tamizh texts. Many gods preceed him. Shaivism had deep roots in Tamizh country only after the Buddhist/Jain period.
  
  Vishnu or ThirumAl could be of Dravidian origin as well.
  
  Some books: The Smile of Murugan by Kamil Zvelbil or the translations of A K Ramanujan.
  
  The ThiruvAsakam refers to the veDas a lot, including starting an invocation of the panchAkshari mantram found in the Rig Veda.
  
  For that matter, Ramana Maharishi had written a commentary on the Rudram - or one of his devotees i think...
  
  There does not seem to be any proof linking the motif found in mohenjodaro with the present day worship of Shiva.
  
  
• From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Sat Jun 14 03:37:47 EDT 2003
  
  //panchAkshari mantram found in the Rig Veda.//
  
  What is that?? some pointers please. which Book of the Rig Veda, Chapter and verses?? Please.
  
  
• From: R.Sri Hari (@ modem22.bayrac3.eureka.lk) on: Sat Jan 22 09:01:56
  
  A "VERY BRIEF STUDY"
  ON THE EVOLUTION OF SAIVAISM
  AND ITS EARLY DEVELOPMENTS IN TAMIL NADU
  
  The Saivaism, also known as the Saiva religion and as Saiva Samayam in Tamil, is the main branch of the Hindu Religion of today. It acclaims the worship of the "God almighty" - "who has not even a name or a form" - as enlightened by the Tamil Saiva Saint Maanikkavaasakar as "Oru naamam oor uruvam, ontrum illaarkku" in his religious text Thiruvaasakam (in Tamil).
  
  The Tamil Saiva Saint Kaaraikkaal Ammaiyaar too asks the God himself – "what shall I say to those who ask which is the form of your God, tell me which is your form" - as "Ev uruvoan num piran enbaar hatkku en uraihen, Ev uruvo nin uruvam eathu" in her religious text Atputhath Thiruvanthathi (in Tamil), being quite uncertain of his real form.
  
  In Saivaism, the "God almighty" who is invisible to all - human beings and the other living beings - has been given the name as "God Siva" and a form as human, and held supreme of the universe. He is known to have given vision to those who have reached a very high state of spiritual maturity in the very forms he was worshiped by them - either in human forms or in symbolic forms, with different names for each of these forms.
  
  The origin of the worship of "God almighty" as "God Siva" is still not clear, but in all probability the religion Saivaism professing the worship of "God Siva", originated among a very early civilisation (unknown to us) in the Tibetian region adjacent to the present northern -Nepal and Uttar Pradesh of India.
  
  It is here the Mount Kailash, also known to the Indians as Mount Meru of the vast and breath taking heights of the Himalayan mountain range is situated, and the river Bahirathi originating as a tributary from the Mount Nanda Devi - also of this range about 100 miles south-west of Mount Kailash, joins with another tributary known as Alaknanda at a point known as Gangoththri to form the great river Ganges.
  
  This early civilisation of this region in all probability conceived the original form of "God Siva" as a human masculine, having - a lock of hair (kontrai) on his head bearing the crest moon and the river Gangai flowing from it, a third eye in his forehead and a blue mark around his neck, holding a trident in one hand and dressed in tiger skins with cobra snakes around his neck and arms, with "Goddess Sakthi" - deemed as his inherent energy - on his left side as a human feminine, and both having the bull as their vehicle, and with the snow capped Mount Kailash of the Himalayan mountain range as their abode.
  
  The period when this form of the "God almighty" as "Siva" and his worship - took shape, among this civilisation in the vicinity of Mount Kailash in the Tibetian region, could be taken as the time of inception of the Saiva religion.
  
  The Saivaism over a period of time gradually spread all over India, including the regions in its north-west among the Indus Valley civilisations, and in the remote south upto Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, where the sage Agastiya and king Ravana respectively became the ardent devotees of God Siva.
  
  Thus the original Saiva religious concept of God, and the related forms of worship that reached various parts of India from the Tibetian region, continued to be practised in their original forms, and over a period of time in some regions the original Saivaism underwent further developments evolved by the Sages and Saints of those regions, independently with their own "new" - God forms of "Siva" and "Sakthi", religious philosophies, modes of worship, and religious texts - greatly influenced by the language, culture and traditions of those regions, and integrated with the practises of the original Saivaism.
  
  During the early period of Tamil Nadu too, the original form of Saivaism with the "God almighty" represented in the form of "Siva & Sakthi", and the forms of their worship as evolved in the Tibetian region, were well known.
  
  With the passage of time the original Saivaism gradually underwent further developments in Tamil Nadu - with the evolution of new religious concepts on the special attributes and glories of "God Siva" & "Goddess Sakthi", and new forms of their representation in relation to these special attributes and glories too came forth - as Lingothbavamoorthy (God Siva represented in the form of Lingam) Arthanaadeesware-moorthy, Thetchana- moorthy, Kalyanasundera-moorthy, UmaMaheswara-moorthy, Somaskanda-moorthy, and as Nadaraja-moorthy.
  
  Likewise new – holy religious texts, modes of worship and religious practices - too took shape, influenced and blended with the culture and traditions of Tamil Nadu that existed during this early period.
  
  New concepts of God Siva's being represented in five element forms of the universe too developed in Tamil Nadu as fire, water, air, earth, and space, and represented in his symbolic form as Panchalingams (five Lingams) with each Lingam representing an element. Further concepts, that these five elements are associated with five important Temple Shrines of Tamil Nadu too developed, and were known as Panchabootha Thalams (shrines).
  
  New concepts of God Siva's eight deeds with mythological stories relating to them too developed in Tamil Nadu, and these deeds were associated with further Siva-Temple shrines which were all within Tamil Nadu, and were known as Atta Viratta Thalams.
  
  These developments in Tamil Nadu undoubtedly would have been the reason that made the great Tamil Saint Maanickavaasakar praise "God Siva" as "Then naadudaiya Sivane potri, en naattavarkkum Iraivaa potri" in his Thiruvaasakam, claiming him specifically as the God of the southern country the Tamil Nadu where he evolved in new - human, symbolic and element forms of the universe, having their associated temple shrines "all being within TamilNadu itself".
  
  This could be also the reason why the poet Kallaadanar who wrote the Saivite religious work known as "Kallaadam" mentioned God Siva as "then Thamil Kadavul"
  
  During the early period of Saivaism in Tamil Nadu, the Saiva religious texts that evolved from this region were called the Agamams. Saivaism apparently was the first known religion of Tamil Nadu, and the Agamams were the original holy texts of Saivaism of this region.
  
  Agamams means religious texts, and was a general term used to specify the Saiva religious texts that evolved and developed in the early Tamil Nadu. However during the later periods with the coming of the Vaishnava, Saktha and Jain religious texts, to differentiate the Saiva religious texts from the others, it was called as the Siva Agamams. The Tamil Saiva Saint Thirumoolar mentions the original Agamams were in Tamil in addition to it being in Sanskrit.
  
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• From: happyindian (@ bbcache-13.singnet.com.sg) on: Mon Jan 24 07:01:15 EST 2005
  
  The word Shiva comes from the word Isha. Isha means the causative effect / that 'thing' that rules, the fundamental source. The word Ish is also used to mean desire / wishes (Ish rhymes with wish, probably they share the same root sound). So Isha probably means 'that which rules our desires', 'that which rules our existance' (as desires result in the existance we want to make). Isha is considered as divinity without a form by many Shaivite sects (its funny that Muslims too worship a formless divinity represented by a crecent moon). Giving Isha a form makes it Ishvara. There are 2 seperate concepts in the concept of Isha and Ishvara but overlapped. Ishavara is symbolic of Isha but Isha cannot represent Ishwara (read this in a magazine).
  
  

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