Topic started by Just thinking aloud (@ kiribati.cs.ucl.ac.uk) on Mon Nov 17 16:26:25 EST 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

So I have just accidentally dropped into this page and a lot of the subject matter revolves across caste and how no one is interested in it. I was not interested in it until the subject of who I should marry came into play.

I am amazed at the number of people who come into forums like this and preach that caste is not important... but you can be sure that when it comes to their marriage, or that of their children, it will definetly come into play?

Since I was brought up outside my home country (Srilanka), I am very curious about the importance of caste. Why is it, just because I come from a good background should I be forced into a marriage of the right caste or risk loosing my family, my friends or risk being outcast forever...

How did this originate? What is all the argument about? And why is this not stressed as an important thing at childhood. You are taught not to be prejudiced in anyway and then the caste system shows it's ugly head!

Responses:

• From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Mon Nov 17 17:45:40 EST 2003
  
  It is important! Then you can blame one another! If you wipe out the caste system - you have wiped out Hinduism!
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Mon Nov 17 19:14:11 EST 2003
  
  SOME CORRECTION:-
  
  
  If you wipe out the caste system -
  you have wiped out Brahmanism not the Hinduism!
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Just thinking aloud (@ kiribati.cs.ucl.ac.uk) on: Tue Nov 18 09:44:38 EST 2003
  
  Yes, I understand that this must have been an issue in the olden days, where tamils/hindus were concentrated in relatively small areas... when women had to stay at home, you had to have the right caste to get a job, or you had to have the luxury being a land owner provided... But what about the tamil hindus today? Afterall aren't we all just trying to get to a beter place using the best resources we have? Why is it such an issue that one person is born into a farming background and another is born in a fishing background? At the end of the day your birthright in itself plays no effect in how lives are lead and how you affect other people???? Or am I wrong?
  
  
• From: karthi (@ wc09.ym.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com) on: Wed Nov 19 07:54:45 EST 2003
  
  Gogiya is right!
  
  
• From: T3 (@ ppp-76.blr.eth.net) on: Wed Nov 19 08:23:33 EST 2003
  
  People should be attacking a system which they poorly understand. The caste system has been heavily misused by the British who ruled the Indian subcontinent for over 200 years (it changes a lot, you know).
  
  For a more academic and less caustic prespective:
  
  http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Caste_System.htm
  
  Caste affects not only Hinduism, but all religions in the South Asian region. Even the Islamic republic of Pakistan has caste based islam and politics, similar with Bangladesh and even among Sinhalese Buddhists.
  
  Even the likes of Idiappam who oppose caste, implicitly practice it.
  
  
• From: tamilian (@ bbcache-9.singnet.com.sg) on: Wed Nov 19 12:23:39 EST 2003
  
  "From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Mon Nov 17 19:14:11 EST 2003
  SOME CORRECTION:-
  If you wipe out the caste system -
  you have wiped out Brahmanism not the Hinduism!"
  
  You are very close to the fact.danks
  
  
  
  
  
• From: tamilian (@ bbcache-17.singnet.com.sg) on: Wed Nov 19 12:25:35 EST 2003
  
  Paapan ipdi than kathai arambipan.
  
  
• From: T3 (@ ppp-63.blr.eth.net) on: Wed Nov 19 23:20:40 EST 2003
  
  Dudes, hinduism - casteism = divine.
  
  Christianity and Islam are inherently intolerant and unscientific religions. Hinduism, Buddhism are scientific religions.
  
  
• From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Thu Nov 20 11:27:07 EST 2003
  
  //Dudes, hinduism - casteism = divine. //
  
  Scientific, indeed!
  
  
• From: shakti (@ 61.1.228.106) on: Thu Nov 20 13:12:52 EST 2003
  
  
  
  All Hindus should follow the dictum of the Vedas;
  and reject birth-based caste system and discrimination
  , if -any, remove
  
  Awaken hindu!
  
  http://thetruehistoryandthereligionofindia.org
  
  
• From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Thu Nov 20 18:05:14 EST 2003
  
  //All Hindus should follow the dictum of the Vedas; and reject birth-based caste system and discrimination//
  
  Caste is a very important part of the vedas! How can one 'follow the dictum of the Vedas and at the same time reject caste?
  
  If you reject caste then reject the Vedas!
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Thu Nov 20 19:26:01 EST 2003
  
  Vedas - It is KINDERGARDEN level of knowledge to MANKIND.
  Vedas - Taught to people how to identify their community and developed some interest to establish Kingdom.
  
  Eventhough, Caste is a very important part of the vedas. We can overcome this unwanted method of pratice with understanding. Just because Brahmin are very fond of caste system it doesn't necessarily mean we should criticize them and ask them to throw away all the Vedas which is promoting the caste system.
  
  This century is best than all other past century.
  Even small child is equal to the sage of the past in understanding. Then why we should blame others, this is only shows that we are lack of knowledge.
  
  All good and bad, heaven and hell, spirit and devil are existing in this earth to educate the Mankind. This is which GOD created - book for Mankind to study and perceive things from it.
  
  
• From: Karuvayan (@ adsl-63-204-32-221.startelcorp.com) on: Thu Nov 20 19:49:08 EST 2003
  
  >> Christianity and Islam are inherently intolerant and unscientific religions.
  
  Since when Lord Rama/Krishna wanted their devotees to learn science/math/politics.
  
  
• From: Tamilan-1 (@ adsl-63-204-32-221.startelcorp.com) on: Thu Nov 20 19:52:44 EST 2003
  
  Gogiya vaaal,
  
  ippa ennagurael! Lifting for brahmins?
  
  Pure simple. Nuke caste. Create a casteless socitey. Ofcourse that means there will be no brahminism. As someone said earlier, Hinduism will be made divine AGAIN with the demise of brahminism.
  
  
• From: Idiappam (@ cache138.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Thu Nov 20 20:13:22 EST 2003
  
  //Vedas - Taught to people how to identify their community and developed some interest to establish Kingdom. //
  
  Religion needs all these? *sigh*
  
  
• From: mummudicholan (@ 66.98.130.64) on: Thu Nov 20 22:09:31 EST 2003
  
  HINDUISM & CASTE
  Caste (varna):
  Brahmin = Priest Caste;
  Ksatriya = Rajanya/Ruler/Warrior Caste;
  Vaisya = Commoner Caste;
  Sudra = Servant/Slave Caste; and
  Avarna = Outcaste/Untouchable/Dalit/Candala/Dog-eater.
  
  There are also many subsets in each caste. Dvija = twice-born (twice-born = upper 3 castes or sometimes just Brahmin caste particularly). Some Hindus have a delusion that caste is not promoted by any of their holy books. Is that really so? Let's find out:
  
  "By his very birth a Brahmin is a deity even for the gods and the only authority for people in this world, for the Veda is the foundation in this matter." -- Manusmrti 11:85.
  
  "People here whose behaviour is pleasant can expect to enter a pleasant womb, like that of a woman of the Brahmin, the Ksatriya, or the Vaisya caste. But people of foul behaviour can expect to enter the foul womb, like that of a dog, a pig, or an outcaste woman." -- Chandogya Upanisad 5:10:7.
  
  "If a man of one birth (Sudra) hurls cruel words at one of the twice-born, his tongue should be cut out, for he was born from the rear-end. If he mentions their name or caste maliciously, a red-hot iron nail ten-fingerslong should be thrust into his mouth. If he is so proud as to instruct priests about their duty, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears." -- Manusmrti 8:270-272.
  
  "If a man of inferior caste tries to sit down on the same seat as a man of superior caste, he should be branded on the hip and banished, or have his buttocks cut off." -- Manusmrti 8:281.
  
  "If in the process of negotiating betrothal there are first ten suitors of the non-Brahmana varna for a woman (the marriageable girl), all of them lose their claims of marriage and, only the Brahmin, the learned one, if he grasps her hand would be her husband and only he. Not even the man of Ksatriya varna and not even the man of Vaisya varna but only the Brahmin is the husband of the bride in such cases of claimants of betrothal, and the sun, as it appears, revealing this fact to the people of five classes (4 varnas and the fifth avarna) rises up." -- Atharva Veda 5:17:8-9.
  
  "If someone born in a Ksatriya, Vaisya, or Sudra womb should be unable to pay his fine, he may absolve himself of the debt by labour; a Brahmin should pay little by little. The king should have women, children, madmen, and the old, the poor, and the ill chastised with a whip, a bamboo cane, a rope, and so forth." -- Manusmrti 9:229-230.
  
  "The Sudra's duty and supreme good is nothing but obedience to famous Brahmin householders who know the Veda. If he is unpolluted, obedient to his superiors, gentle in his speech, without a sense of 'I', and always dependent on the Brahmins and the other (twice-born castes), he attains a superior birth (in the next life)." -- Manusmrti 9:334-335.
  
  "…thereby the Ksatriya, whenever he likes, says, 'Hello Vaisya, just bring to me what you have stored away!' Thus he both subdues him and obtains possession of anything he wishes by dint of this very energy." -- Satapatha Brahmana 1:3:2:15.
  
  "One-fourth of (the punishment for) Brahmin-killing is traditionally regarded as (the punishment) for the killing of a Ksatriya, one-eighth for (killing) a Vaisya, and it should be one-sixteenth for (killing) a Sudra who knows his place." -- Manusmrti 11:127.
  
  "A Brahmin is a great deity whether or not he is learned, just as fire is a great deity whether or not it is brought to the altar. The purifying fire with its brilliant energy is not defiled even in cremation grounds, and when oblations of butter are placed in it at sacrifices it grows even greater. Thus Brahmins should be revered in every way, even if they engage in all kinds of undesirable actions, for this is the supreme deity. If the Ksatriyas become overbearing towards the Brahmins in any way, the Brahmins themselves should subdue them, for the Ksatriyas were born from the Brahmins." -- Manusmrti 9:317-320.
  
  "A Ksatriya in adversity may also make a living by all of these (means); but he should never be so proud as to assume the livelihood of his betters. If a man of the lowest caste should, through greed, make his living by the innate activities of his superiors, the king should confiscate his wealth and banish him immediately. One's own duty, (even) without any good qualities, is better than someone else's duty well done; for a man who makes his livingby someone else's duty immediately falls from (his own) caste." -- Manusmrti 10:95-97.
  
  "With whatever limb an inferior insults or hurts his superior in caste, of that limb the king shall cause him to be deprived. If he places himself on the same seat with his superior, he shall be banished with a mark on hisbuttocks. If he spits on him, he shall lose both lips; If he breaks wind against him, his hindparts; If he uses abusive language, his tongue. If a (lowborn) man through pride gives instruction (to a member of the highest caste) concerning his duty, let the king order hot oil to be dropped into his mouth. If a (low-born man) mentions the name or caste of a superior revilingly, an iron pin, ten inches long, shall be thrust into his mouth (red hot)." -- Visnusmrti 5:19-25.
  
  "His (Purusa's) mouth became the Brahmin; his arms were made into the Ksatriya, his thighs the Vaisya, and from his feet the Sudra was born." -- Rig Veda 10:90:12.
  
  In comparison, Sudras are as low as feet & Outcastes (avarna) are even below that status of course.
  
  
  
  
• From: karthi (@ wc09.ym.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com) on: Thu Nov 20 22:44:07 EST 2003
  
  Manusmrithi is now followed by LOW castes than HIGH castes!
  
  
  

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