Topic started by Periyar Arivar (@ spider-tq074.proxy.aol.com) on Tue Feb 5 00:03:22 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have learned in several references that aRivar are the original Tamil priests in ancient Tamil Kingdoms prior to the arrival of Vedic Brahmins. They were the most respected community in Tamizhaham.

aRivar were supposed to have known the past, present, and future. They vehemently opposed the arrival of Vedic Brahmins to Tamizhaham. This community had disappeared with the beginning of the Tamil Saiva Religion in sixth century AD.

Every nation on the earth has/ had its own priests. Unfortunately, few individuals in this forum are promoting the view that Tamils did not have any priest prior to the arrival of Vedic Brahmins from North India. They are absolutely wrong.

One could find several references to aRivaR in tholkAppiyam and I have listed an instance herein:

“kazivinum nikazvinum ethivinum vazi koLa
nallavai uraiththalum allavai kadithalum
sevilikku uriya Akum enpa.

solliya kiLavi aRivarkkum uriya.”

Please note that “sevili” and “kiLavi” mean foster-mother and words, respectively. Other words are easily understandable.

When VaLLuvan says anthaNar, it could be aRivar, pArpanar, pulaiyar or any other Tamil priest. It could even refer to Jain priests.

Majority of the modern day Tamil Nadu Brahmins is descendent of Tamils who had converted into Brahmins due to Agama tradition. This is one of the major differences between Agama and Vedic traditions. Veda strictly prohibits this conversion.

It is unfortunate that the Vedic champions in this forum cannot distinguish between Veda and Agama.

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Singam (@ adsl-81-40-231.asm.bellsouth.net) on: Fri May 3 04:03:23
  
  Hi Peritay:
  Your citing of her name was to show how you humiliated her. Your reference to her non-reply was to show that how you, as the great one, was smarter. You need not have given her name. Also you took pride in stating that she attended your marriage.
  You were the one complained about how Sanskrit has influenced Tamil through years.
  I am a Tamil by birth, by education, and by practice. I also tolerate other languages and religeon, although I don't understand Sanskrit am a borderline atheist.
  Could you say that you do with your hand placed on your Tamil heart?
  
  
  
• From: Srini (@ 210-210-41-55.lan.sify.net) on: Fri May 3 13:47:03
  
  Singam:
  
  I think you are over-reacting. Gandhiji is reported to have said once "Attachment to an ideal is Non-Attachment". Now, that's debatable. But still, the 'attachment' shown by Periyar Arivar' borders on an ideal, and by no means you should try to discredit his intentions.
  
  May be he could have avoided spilling out the name of that lady. But since he says she is a public figure, he could have taken the extra liberty of citing her name. I don't know if she is aware her name is dropped in here. Is she is (made) aware and doesn't object to, I don't see any reason why you must take the cudgels on her behalf.
  
  There are spokespersons for Sanskrit from many quarters, how many could you cite for Tamil. Why cannot you appreciate the commendable efforts of a countable few ? Why do you have to see any person holding such opinions as 'rebels' rather than 'activists' with positive zeal ? Could you factually refute the points made by him in confronting her ?
  
  I had come across a brief news in "The Hindu" a few months back, about a Madras University professor concluding his study of Indonesia/region with remarks that the language shows remarkable influence of Sanskrit. I know of a friend who used to tell me Tamil words in use too (Kulam for pond). I do not know why these do not warrant an equal space in the columns of mainstream Newspapers. In India, media and educated Indians have done precious little to save heterogeneity, leave alone promoting it. If some like Periyar Arivar has the knowledge and resolve to 'educate' someone from this 'lot' on the antiquity and depth of Tamil, what's wrong, my dear friend ?
  
  I would rather say, such people need to be 'debriefed' quite often lest their unilateral view jaundice everyone else's vision too.
  
  
• From: Thiru (@ cache-blr.ernet.in) on: Fri May 3 15:05:41
  
  
  I second Srini.
  
  ---- Thiru ----
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ h66-59-174-253.gtconnect.net) on: Fri May 3 15:32:21
  
  Srini and Periyar Arivar,
  
  article of interest to both of you :-)))
  
  The Extent of the Influence of Tamil on the Malay Language: A Comparative Study
  
  T.Wignesan
  
  http://hometown.aol.com/wignesh/TAMILINFLUENCEMALAY.htm
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ h66-59-174-253.gtconnect.net) on: Fri May 3 15:37:58
  
  a lot of people would see Sanskrit roots in many of the Words listed above but the emphasis is from via which language speakers did it get passed on to South East Asia.
  
  'Singham' is a Tamilized Sanskrit word (?) but it is a clan name of a Batak tribe in Indonesia. Hence the idea is it was borrowed via Tamils not from Tamil language.
  
  
• From: Srini (@ 210.210.43.77) on: Sat May 4 00:53:00
  
  Raveen:
  Thanks. A good article indeed.
  
  
• From: VRAGHAVAN (@ dialup-mum-203.94.226.179.bol.net.in) on: Sat May 18 09:33:41
  
  I PERSONALLY FEEL TAMIL SOCIETY PRIOR TO ARYAN SETTLEMENT IN TODAYS DECCAN MAY BE AROUND 9TH CENTURY B.C.WAS CLASSLESS.CLASSLESS I MEAN TO SAY THE BIRTH RIGHT ENJOYMENTCONCEPT FOUND IN SOME ARYANIC SMRITIS.THOUGH WE SHOULD ACCEPT EVEN VEDIC SOCIETY WAS CLASSLESS IN THAT SENSE.LORD SHIVA GETTING IDENTIFIED WITH RISHABA DEVA THE TAMIL SOCIETY WAS BASICALLY JAIN SOCIETY.THE SOCIETY WAS SPREAD FAR &WIDE ACROSS THE SUBCONTINENT,I DONT FEEL THE TEMPLE SOCIETY EXISTED IN TAMILNADU ATLEAST UPTO 5TH CENTURY B.C.
  SO TAMILS NEED NOT BE CATEGORISED TO THE FOLLY OF ARYANISM.THE FOUR CLASSES DO NOT EXIST EVEN TODAY IN TAMIL NADU.THE CLASSIFICATION IS BASICALLY LIMITED TO BRAHMANS&THE NON BRAHMANS
  
  
• From: VRAGHAVAN (@ dialup-mum-203.94.226.179.bol.net.in) on: Sat May 18 09:33:51
  
  I PERSONALLY FEEL TAMIL SOCIETY PRIOR TO ARYAN SETTLEMENT IN TODAYS DECCAN MAY BE AROUND 9TH CENTURY B.C.WAS CLASSLESS.CLASSLESS I MEAN TO SAY THE BIRTH RIGHT ENJOYMENTCONCEPT FOUND IN SOME ARYANIC SMRITIS.THOUGH WE SHOULD ACCEPT EVEN VEDIC SOCIETY WAS CLASSLESS IN THAT SENSE.LORD SHIVA GETTING IDENTIFIED WITH RISHABA DEVA THE TAMIL SOCIETY WAS BASICALLY JAIN SOCIETY.THE SOCIETY WAS SPREAD FAR &WIDE ACROSS THE SUBCONTINENT,I DONT FEEL THE TEMPLE SOCIETY EXISTED IN TAMILNADU ATLEAST UPTO 5TH CENTURY B.C.
  SO TAMILS NEED NOT BE CATEGORISED TO THE FOLLY OF ARYANISM.THE FOUR CLASSES DO NOT EXIST EVEN TODAY IN TAMIL NADU.THE CLASSIFICATION IS BASICALLY LIMITED TO BRAHMANS&THE NON BRAHMANS
  
  
• From: visu (@ dialpool-210-214-212-123.maa.sify.net) on: Sat May 18 10:24:20
  
  vraghavan,
  u may be right.
  the pinch is brahmins( how many -i dont know) treat non brahmins as shudras. not openly but manyways.
  if in a apartment with 6 flats, oneflat is nonbrahmin, others 5brahmin,u can really see the brahmins treatment. they even comment that flat as shudra house.(consider the same before 20yrs. how it have been)
  i am not abusing any brahmin but the true face is cruel.
  wheras the same flat is reverse with 5 nonbrahmins and 1 brahmin, 1 brahmin is not singled out. he is given more respect (then deserved?) i have seen some nonvegetarians(even christians) not cooking nvs on particular days where brahmins are having some good thithis.
  
  
• From: Mavalangkilli (@ wc05.ym.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com) on: Sun Jun 9 23:35:37
  
  Anthanar mean the person who respect all living things and live his/her life by following that obligation. It's not a priest name u moron!!
  If u have a Thirukural Book just look at the 'Athikaram' 3 and the kural 30. Valluvar gives the true defintion and Anthanargal is not some priest they are normal ppl and they aren't any 'sati' ppl.
  
  Of course we had priest before the arrival of Aryans. They were called as 'Poosari' and by other words and they weren't some 'sati' group or any varuna group. We used to pray GOD by the flower. 'Poosai' mean 'pooval [flowers] saeium saiki.' That's what it say and maybe we had other ways of praying but using Theepam and other things to pray God came from us. Rather than 'Vaithikar' Who used to kill animals and give the flush to the God which was improper thing to do in 'Sivanijar' [Siva] religion. This is why now days we have sticks put in the 'vaelvi' rather than animal flush or the meat and even though we have some Temples who do this. Ancient time maybe decades of thousand years befo we thought King same to God. Because he was the one who was protecting us and it didn't make him difffer but he was like the God. This is where the word 'Kovil' or 'Kojil' came 'Ko' mean Arasan [king] and 'Il' meant illam or veedu which then punarnthuthu and became as Kovil and Kojil.
  
  Tamil 'Poosarikal' became as the Ariyar one's due to 'Pallava' Arasu in Tamil Nadu but still there's about 30,000 Tamil Temples in Thamizh Nadu which is prayed by Thamizh rather than using Sanskirit.
  
  
• From: P.N.Kumar (@ 202.152.1.146) on: Mon Jun 10 00:58:57
  
  kOyil:
  kO - Soul (pasu)
  il - Destination - serum idam
  
  Alayam:
  A - Soul (pasu again)
  layam - place of harmony (layikkym idam)
  
  As long as you guys keep addressing others as 'morons' there is no room for any such harmony for your souls!
  
  
• From: Nedunchezhiyan (@ ) on: Wed May 5 12:20:28
  
  
  Well how can a Thamizhan have a harmony being a moron under (H)India? eh?
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ ptr-64-201-162-1.ptr.terago.ca) on: Wed May 5 14:52:56 EDT 2004
  
  Hi P.N. Kumar,
  
  kO is derived from King/Cheif/Leader not Soul according to DEDR. So kOyil is the Kings house or Kings place.
  
  

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