Mahabarata & Bagavad Gita
Topic started by Madurai Veeran on Tue Feb 15 01:10:40 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
To my erudite friends:
I have a few questions. I hope you will help me find the truth.
[1] When was Mahabarata translated to Tamil?
[2] When was Bagavad Gita translated to Tamil?
[3] When did namboodri brahmins appear in Kerala
(or Chera Nadu)?
[4] Was Adi Sankara a namboodri brahmin?
Best regards
Madurai Veeran
(hope you will forgive me for my silly pseudonym)
Responses:
- From: gdravid (@ 204.32.146.198)
on: Tue Feb 15 23:39:38 EST 2000
Madurai Veeran,
let me check before answering you that this thread got anything to do with tamil literature.
I dont want to get a hit in my head from different directions.
mmmm.. ya some connection is there.
My answers may not be accurate but to the best of
my meagre knowledge.
1. When was Mahabarata translated to Tamil?
Villipuththoorar mahabharatham is the oldest translation. Probably of 17-18th centuryAD.
Another one I read in my school days is the "Viyasar Virundhu" by Rajagoplaacharyar.
2. When was Bagavad Gita translated to Tamil?
Not before 18th century AD. I would like to know the answer for this question. When did Bhagavat Gita found a palce inside Mahabharata?
3. When did namboodri brahmins appear in Kerala
4-5 century AD. By the time even chiristians, Jews and Arabs also started appearing in Kerala.
4. Was Adi Sankara a namboodri brahmin?
There is a confusion about the actual period of Adi Sankara. The Kanchi mutt claims he was from the period of 485BC(Around Budhdha's period). If that is the case he may not be even from kerala
at all. Or if by the conventional estimate of
10-11C AD, he may be a namboothri brahmin. But since the namboothri brahmins themselves didnt accept his theory, I dont know whether those namboothris accepted him as their brotherhood or Adi Sankara himself believed as a nomboothri.
gdravid.
PS: Sorry, I cannot forgive you for calling the name "Madurai Veeran" as silly :-).
- From: Madurai Veeran (@ 179.san-francisco-40rs16rt.dial-access.att.net)
on: Wed Feb 16 00:27:48 EST 2000
Thank you gdravid. Now I have more questions.
[1] Has Bagavad Gita found any mention in any of the Tamil literature before the 18th century?
If not, why not?
[2] Assuming Kanchi mutt's claims are accurate, since Adi Sankara was born in the Tamil country, did he write anything in Tamil? Does Adi Sankara get any mention in Thevaram, Thirupugaz, Thivya Prapandam, or Thirumandiram?
[3] If namboodri brahmins appeared in Chera Nadu around 4-5 th century AD, how are they referred to in the Tamil literature? Iyer (and Iyengar) being earned tittles, I am wondering why namboodris were not accorded the same titles.
Were they included in the 'marai odhum andhanar' category?
Since history and literature are intertwined, at least in the Tamil context, I posed these questions to this newsgroup.
Best regards,
Madurai Veeran
- From: gdravid (@ 198.211.199.46)
on: Wed Feb 16 01:11:54 EST 2000
Ƒ ,
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- From: JayBee (@ 202.188.135.86)
on: Wed Feb 16 06:46:07 EST 2000
There was a a Tamil version of the MahaBharatham during the Sangam Age. There was a pulavar called Bharatham paadiya PerundhEvanaar. The work that was created by him is now lost.
During the Pallava times, there was another PerundhEvaraar who had his Tamil version of Bharatham. Some poems from that work is available.
During the Chola and Pandya times, the Bharatham was recited in the Siva temples. They had special provisions for the recital of Bharatham.
I don't see anything silly about the name Madurai Veeran. Let's stop at that, if I am to continue more on the Bharatham recital in the ancient times.
- From: Hari Krishnan (@ 202.144.10.93)
on: Thu Feb 17 21:04:28 EST 2000
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- From: Madurai Veeran (@ 53.san-francisco-13-14rs.ca.dial-access.att.net)
on: Fri Feb 18 01:25:28 EST 2000
Thank you Mr.Krishnan.
If I am not mistaken the age of Pura-na-nuru is said to be in the neighborhood of 600 BC.
Would I be right in saying Muranjiuur MudiNagarayar was a contemporary of Perun-chorru-thianj-cheralathan? And would it also mean that the age of Mahabarata war is around 600 BC.
If Mahabarata is any older than 600 BC, I have to conclude that parts of Pura-na-nuru are much older than the dates assigned. Is this a valid inference?
Best regards,
Madurai Veeran
- From: JayBee (@ 202.188.135.42)
on: Fri Feb 18 03:26:26 EST 2000
That's a nice explanation.
Bharatha VeNba is considered older than VilliBharatham.
There was a beleif that the Pandyas were descendants of Arjuna.
In one of the Shashti Kavacams of Devaraaya SwamigaL, he mentions,
"eNNaayiram samaN edhir kalzuvERRi,
viNNOr kumaaran viyaadhiyaith thiirththavaa"
This is a complex piece of representation.
The kavacam is addressed to Murugan.
But the above lines point to the exploit of ThiruGnaanaSambandhar.
He is considered to be an incarnation of Murugan(apara Subrahmanya state).
ViNNOrKumaaran is Kuun Paandiyan. Arjuna is the son of Indra. ViNNOr kumaaran is his epithet. He married Chithraanggadhai who was the daughter of Malaydhvaja Pandya. She is commonly known as Alli RaanNi. Their descendants continued ruling in Madurai. The Pandyas had a particular custom.
You would find five Pandyas ruling in different parts of the Pandya country at the same time. They were known as the "Pancha Pandiyas". Visvanatha Nayakkar met the last five Pandyas near ThenKaasi and defeated them. Thus the line came to an end.
Arjuna's epithet is being applied to Kuun Paandiyan in this verse thus.
Curious!
Especially when you notice that this kavacam was
written by the SawaamigaL in the 19th century.
The tradition must have come down all these centuries.
There is another reference also.
- From: JayBee (@ sp-69-75.tm.net.my)
on: Fri Feb 18 04:20:54 EST 2000
The copper plate grants of Rajasimma Pandiyan are known as
the "Chinnamanuur CheppEdugaL". They are dated 911AD.
It recites the glory and deeds of the past Pandiyas before him
followed by his deeds.
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You have reference of "Panchavan" in the above passage.
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This is a Pandava connection.
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And here is a direct reference to creating the Tamil version of MahaBharatham
and also the Sanggam.
- From: Kattabommu (@ ccedu218.nets.uri.edu)
on: Fri Feb 18 19:13:38 EST 2000
Kalinga King Asoka is also believed to be descendent of Pandavas. A character known as Pinthusarar appears in Mahabharatha. Indian history before 600B.C is quite murky and not clearly documented.
Kattabommu
- From: who wants to know? (@ ka02-141.vvm.com)
on: Mon Dec 17 20:58:40
blablablablablablabalblablabla bla who wants to learn about india
- From: who wants to know? (@ ka02-141.vvm.com)
on: Mon Dec 17 21:00:02
INDIA SUX! WHY DO ANYONE HAVE TO LEARN ABOUT IT?
- From: Krish (@ ac83b69f.ipt.aol.com)
on: Thu Jan 3 16:13:58
Hi all..
Well, I am unable to read most of the tamiz fonts so excuse me if am repeating a question that is already answered there..
Could anyone please tell me where can I download thirupugaz and thevaram songs (prefer if its sung by any singer)..
Your any help is appreciated. Please mail me at krishnaniyer@hotmail.com
- From: hari (@ sngwebproxy1a.hp.com.sg)
on: Wed Jan 16 04:21:46
from where can i download english version of bagavad gita
- From: Ashraf (@ ddp-14-222.ras226.mantraonline.com)
on: Fri Aug 1 06:10:59
There are many English translation of Gita available on the net. Check this one, for example.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/agsgita.htm
I would however suggest you to download and install Baghvad Gita software (Geeta Vaatika) free from Chinmaya Mission site. It is Swami Chinmayananda's translation and has text in Sanskrit too!! Wondering if they have discontinued the free download. I can
Regarding the question by Madurai Veeran on the issue of Adi Sankara's name being mentioned in Thevaram, Thirupugaz, Thivya Prapandam, or Thirumandiram, I would like to state that Thirumandiram (600 AD by scholars) is dated before the time of Sankara (800 AD). He is not mentioned in Thirumandiram. I am not sure about other texts.
- From: narayan (@ )
on: Tue May 25 06:59:24
can anyone tell me where i can download english translation of thirumandiram.
- From: Nithin Reddy (@ )
on: Wed Nov 3 12:29:37
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