Topic started by vohsendhan (@ 202.88.143.84) on Wed Aug 7 01:58:08 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

The "National reaction" to an "International action"

The terrorists have given warning!

In the aftermath of the Amarnath tragedy, the VHP has declared that it has found out that "it is an attack on India's sovereignty at the behest of Pakistan." It has asked the government to put its diplomatic offensive on hold and destroy the terrorist training camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. (Asian Age 7.8.2002).

The BJP Minister of State for Home L.D.Swami virtually blamed Pakistan for the attack. Asked whether he believed Pakistan was behind the attack, Mr.Swami said, "No one has to think twice or doubt that. We know about it and the international community also knows about it." Pakistan rejected "with contempt" Mr. Swami's remarks.(Times of India 7.8.2002).

In the background, the VHP General Secretary in charge of Bajrang Dal, Surendra Jain has "observed", "we cannot rule out a reaction to it in any part of the country". (Asian Age 7.8.2002).

As a patriot, I am supposed to believe that BJP is the Nation and the Nation is BJP. So, I have to disbelieve Pakistan and must believe that it was really Pakistan which was behind the Amarnath episode.

Now, I want to know how there can be a "reaction" to this international action "in any part of" this country. Does it mean that the VHP terrorists are holding the Indian Muslims in every part of India hostage for the "actions" of Pakistan? Under what authority, either moral or legal, can VHP utter such statements?

It is time the international community woke up to the reality that Hitler has taken re-birth in India and his Nazis are styling themselves as RSS, VHP and BJP. The lives of the Muslims in India is openly threatened by these Nazis while the government of India is keeping quiet.

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net) on: Thu Aug 8 15:32:15
  
  A Kashmiri Pandit perspective http://www.kashmir-information.com/
  
  A Kashmiri muslim perspective http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/
  
  Both sites provide historical documents. The second one is devoid of rhetoric and seems well balanced. The first, I have not yet gone through completely.
  
  
• From: Ashok (@ nat-52.laurelnetworks.com) on: Thu Aug 8 18:12:26
  
  For more info on the dynamics of kashmir, a good book to start with is Dynamics of Kashmir Politics written by S.N. Kaul
  
  
• From: kama raju (@ hor186074.uea.ac.uk) on: Thu Aug 8 19:41:06
  
  u bloody vohendan,
  shut ur mouth.u have no right to talk.ur a fool.u dont have right to comment on VHP.i think ur an anti social element.shut up u fool.hindus are innocent people that world has already recognised.now dont cry.u shiiit people are clearly spitted by all world.dont try to write bad about something u dont know clearly.as said by veera brahmendra swamy god will come and destroy all muslims.All gods will teach u a lesson.personally i tell u , u will suffer a lot for ur misdeeds.u wont live long.curse be upon u.
  
  
• From: Srini (@ 203.197.239.1) on: Fri Aug 9 01:07:41
  
  Vohe:
  Thanks for your time and reply. I read through the numbered options you have given and I honestly think your views are more fossilized than mine. It would just be like two people from different planets talking to one another. I am not retreating from a debate, but just feel there is no common ground. So, excuse my withdrawal.
  
  
• From: vohsendhan (@ 202.88.143.68) on: Sat Aug 10 11:33:08
  
  Dear friends,
  Why is it that my postings have been deleted?
  
  
• From: vohsendhan (@ 202.88.133.66) on: Sun Aug 11 07:11:35
  
  
  Dear Mr.Ashok,
  You are asking whether I have done the "necessary preliminery study".
  No. I haven't.
  But, I have not jumped to conclusion like the BJP walas that the Amarnath tragedy was at the behest of the Pakistan government.
  It may or may not be true. Especially in the context of the massacre at the Christian hospital at Taxila, which, I hope, you would not attribute to the Pakistan government.
  
  There are certain groups of terrorists who act on their own in spite of the existence of the government. Just like Surendra Jain of VHP whose statements originated this thread. I believe that this terrorist said this atrocious statement without the prior knowledge of the government.
  
  I never mentioned that India must hold a referendum. I am neither for it nor against it. What I had mentioned was that the solution to Kashmir issue lay not in Kashmir but in the rest of India. Go through my postings once again. You can save your time typing meaningless sentences.If the rest of India had really been allowed to remain secular, Kashmir problem would automatically wither away. Even the people in the POK would on their own come forward to join the Indian union.
  
  To sum up,
  
  
  
  
  
  1. There is no need to search for the solution to the Kashmir problem, in Pakistan.
     
     
  2. Even plebiscite is not necessary in Kashmir.
     
     
  3. The solution is in the rest of India.
     
     
  4. The first step now must be initiated from Ayodhya.
     
     
  
  
  
  I perceive that all the blood that is spilt in Kashmir by our soldiers, all the misery and sorrow that falls on their dependents, all the burden shouldered by the poor as taxes which are used for the defence of the nation are only because of the Hitlerian attitude of the Upper Varna RSS and its front organisations. They will never allow this country to remain peaceful. I envy how and why there is no army anywhere on either side of the long border between the USA and Canada. We too can have such a peaceful atmosphere in the subcontinent if we expose the RSS and its affiliates to the innocent public who are conscripted to join the lower Varna Bajrang Dal but not the Upper Varna RSS secretariat in the same proportion.
  
  I need not, as alleged by you, project the Indian constitution as bad. It is actually so. Dr.B.R.Ambedkar himself has gone on record having said so. The Constitution has been drafted by 6 members out of whom 4 were Brahmins. How else could it be?
  
  In regard to your hyper patriotism (which is actually not towards the nation but towards the Brahminical class), I would like to cite a few statements of Mr. Sandeep Pandey, the recent Magsaysay award winner.
  
  

  Magsaysay awardee Sandeep exposes the Sangh Parivar
  

  
  Talking to TNN Mr. Sandeep Pandey , the Magsaysay award winner, said that some political activists were trying to portray him an anti-national for his statements."He said he stood by his statement that the activities of both the ISI and RAW should be equally condemned. He had made the remark in Kanpur a couple of days ago."
  
  He said Pakistan President seemed more inclined towards restoring peace than Prime Minister Vajpayee who "has been intent on raking up the issue of cross - border terrorism". "According to him, the attitude of the Pakistani leader and not Mr. Vajpayee is more conducive to restoring peace in the region. He also stated that he was ready for a debate with people with contradictory views on the issue".
  
  "Remarking that India could not be absolved of its guilt of giving indirect support to agitators in Sindhi province, the Magsaysay award winner said the Centre's attitude towards Hurriyat leaders, too, had not been good."
  - Times Of India - 10.8.2002.
  

  Step forward to create a society of equals
  

  Please do extend your hand for co-operation.
  We just demand equality.
  But you want to perpetuate your hegemony.
  As long as you entertain such notions of superiority, there will always be social tension.
  
  We are for peaceful co-existence with self-respect.
  
  
  
  
• From: Ashok (@ 12-226-20-115.client.attbi.com) on: Sun Aug 11 15:04:06
  
  >>We too can have such a peaceful atmosphere in the subcontinent if we expose the RSS and its affiliates to the innocent public who are conscripted to join the lower Varna Bajrang Dal but not the Upper Varna RSS secretariat in the same proportion. <<
  
  I never supported the RSS, I also do not think that RSS is responsible for what is happeneing in Kashmir. You have to read the dynamics of Kashmir to understand that it is impossible to solve the problem by "fixing" the rest of india. The Kashmir problem exists because of terrorism not because of some notion of inferiority. If you have not read the dynamics of the Kashmir problem you have no idea about solving it. THe solution doesnt come from idiots who do not know the problem, the swolution comes when people have done the necessary homework. I have read a lot about the Kashmir problem, and no it wont be solved by "equality, or giving more reservations". Sorry if you believe this you really need to read the book I gave you the link to.
  
  
  >>I need not, as alleged by you, project the Indian constitution as bad. It is actually so. Dr.B.R.Ambedkar himself has gone on record having said so. The Constitution has been drafted by 6 members out of whom 4 were Brahmins. How else could it be? <<
  
  THe indian constitution as written by the founders in infact very benign. THere is no other country in the world that has two different laws for its own people depending upon the religion. There is no country in the world that has the kind of reservations for the SCST. One of the fathers of the constitution was a kashmiri pandit, but he did nothing for the Kashmiri pandits, this shows that your earlier accusation of
  
  " The Constitution has been drafted by 6 members out of whom 4 were Brahmins. How else could it be?"
  comes from the hate for brahmins and not by any superior knowledge that you have.
  
  
  >>Talking to TNN Mr. Sandeep Pandey , the Magsaysay award winner, said that some political activists were trying to portray him an anti-national for his statements."He said he stood by his statement that the activities of both the ISI and RAW should be equally condemned. He had made the remark in Kanpur a couple of days ago." <<
  
  I think you do not understand that there is a difference in political authorities and NGO's. Pandey is not a political authority, he does not have a clue about the dynamics either. He is an intelligent chap but by quoting him you are not probving your point, just you innate hatred and your seperationist ideal. Besides in no part in your postys did panday talk about the sangh parivar. besides nobody needs to expose the sangh parivar, they are already exposed for what they are, and I agree with you they are horrible people and unlike your assumption I do not support them.
  
  
  About the how pakistan cannot control the terrorists... yes exactly they cannot control them anymore thats why they dont want to stop them they want to keep sending them to India.
  
  >>But, I have not jumped to conclusion like the BJP walas that the Amarnath tragedy was at the behest of the Pakistan government. <<
  
  But is definitely by terrorists trained by the Pakistani givernment. Today they stand is a miserable position where they cannot control the terrorists they created. Just like the US, because the methods of creatign teh terrorist cells were the same. The sorry state of Pakistan is such that the government doesnt even have control over their own intelligence service (ISI).
  
  >>There is no need to search for the solution to the Kashmir problem, in Pakistan. <<
  
  If you think this you are extremely naive. THe problem originates in Pakistan, if terrorism does nto stop the problem in Kashmir is going to continue. regardless of if there is a plebesite or not.
  
  >>Even plebiscite is not necessary in Kashmir. <<
  
  It might be but definitely not now! because of the dynamics of the problem.
  
  >>The solution is in the rest of India. <<
  
  No way! the rest of india has nothing to do with Kashmir. Rest of india has to do with the other problems of india but not Kashmir.
  
  >>The first step now must be initiated from Ayodhya. <<
  
  This is a different problem (problem nonetheless) but is not related to Kashmir. The Kashmir problem cannot be solved without Fixing the problem of terrorism. And unlike your belief the terrorism is not going to stop by fixing ayodhya.
  
  
  >>They will never allow this country to remain peaceful. I envy how and why there is no army anywhere on either side of the long border between the USA and Canada. We too can have such a peaceful atmosphere in the subcontinent if we expose the RSS and its affiliates to the innocent public who are conscripted to join the lower Varna Bajrang Dal but not the Upper Varna RSS secretariat in the same proportion. <<
  
  However horrible the RSS is the problem with the border is not because of them. ANy amount of you trying to get these two to match for your seperatist ideas is not going to help because you have not given one point of evidence in this regard.
  
  
  >>I perceive that all the blood that is spilt in Kashmir by our soldiers, all the misery and sorrow that falls on their dependents, all the burden shouldered by the poor as taxes which are used for the defence of the nation are only because of the Hitlerian attitude of the Upper Varna RSS and its front organisations.<<
  
  OOH poor guy, not you give this fake sympathy for our soldiers?? why dont you take the mask out and really talk about your agenda (with the DK goons)
  
  
  >>I need not, as alleged by you, project the Indian constitution as bad. It is actually so. Dr.B.R.Ambedkar himself has gone on record having said so.<<
  
  HAHA, Dr. Half baked ambedkar said so, and you believed him? This is teh same guy who wanted the seperation of india and pakistan so that only the Dalits can be helped and the muslims dont need to be, since otherwise muslims would be the majority and since they are poor too they would get all the help. Is that the same ambedkar you are talking about? What a great benign guy to pick to support your argument.
  
  The constitution of india is not the problem for Kashmir. I do disagree with the constitution on a lot of counts. However if you compare the constitution of our country with any other in the world you will see taht our gives the most concessions to the poor, and not the brahmins, no constitution in the world is flawless, but ours is pretty darn good. However the methods to achieve these constitutional goals are horrible, mostly becasue of vote bank politics, and people such as you.
  
  And as srini has said, I have to bow out of this discussion too, not for the same reasons as Srini, but because I dont think you are a guy worth having a discussion with, and waste my time. And if you have not read anything abotu the Kashmir issue (as you have claimed yourself) I dont see the point in having a discussion. as you are not educated enough to talk about it.
  
  
• From: Ashok (@ 12-226-20-115.client.attbi.com) on: Sun Aug 11 16:10:05
  
  Vohe,
  let me write one more thing to you. A country needs to do some evils to fix a greater evil. This principle is followed by Pakistan even. Today pakistan cannot control the terrorist they helped create, therefore in the best interest of their country they send their terrorist to be a permanent problem for India. Now if Pakistan tries to solve it, it would create great unrest/chaos in Pakistan. First every country must look out for itself, and at times must ignore or create some evils to prevent a greater evil. I know the problem of kashmir from both sides of the equation.
  
  Next point is that India needs to get this problem solved, but only after the terrorists are stopped, otherwise its of no use to India, the problem then would become a UP/punjab problem rather than a Kashmir problem (this is of your own admission that the government has no control of the terrorists). This is why vajpayee cannot talk to musharraff until infiltration stops or pakistan puts their terrorist leaders away, otherwise india woudl be wasting their time. Even the world community accepts this, could you imagine America talking to Al Qaeda? this is a similar situation Pakistan is a terrorist state which has been infiltrating india with terrorists, even pakistan wont deny that there is cross border infiltration by their terrorists, and that the leaders of these organizations are infact in pakistan. This is not a moral support but a very evident logistical support for the terrorism. you cannot put the blame on the problems of the rest of india once you see these evident problems, this is if you are not blinded by the utter hatred and your seperatist agenda...
  
  

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