Topic started by Gopal (@ nandi3.lsa.berkeley.edu) on Tue May 30 21:27:02 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi-
Is there any direct correlation or derivation among tamizh pann as seen in tamizh classics and that of carnatic ragaas? Are there anyone out there who have recordings or information about ancient tamizh panns? I mean the actual meters etc. not the textbook variety.
thanks

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: PaaNini (@ 202.54.33.13) on: Sat Jul 15 02:09:01 EDT 2000
  
  gopal :
  why i raised the concept of naada was:
  when we talk of the present carnatic music
  being same as tamilisai we have to examine if all
  concepts of CM had been there in Tamilisai and viceversa and not for which system is better.
  the subjects of cosmos,universe and its origin,
  consciousness etc and naada yoga,etc seem to have a very strong vedic(by vedic i include upanishadic) traits.
  
  
• From: Gopal (@ aca9ac39.ipt.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 15 03:35:48 EDT 2000
  
  To Chandra:
  It looks obvious if you look at the history of tamizh and sanskrit literature: 1. sanskrit literature starts with ithihaasas, maybe that is the reason, valmiki's was called aadhi kaavya. By the time, vedic culture has penetrated into different soceities by force or by choice or by market/economy of the bygone days. 2.very ancient books quoted by now available oldest tamizh books were lost (as per the history)which could have predated even adhikaviyam. Your statement that later sanskrit literature borrowed ...etc. holds good. But to restrict originality to tamizh exclusively is not feasible in this milleneum at least. it is as good or bad saying, all sciences are already discussed in vedas which is a bit more than exaggeration if not greediness.
  3.There are many root words exclusive to sanskrit, even to latin and greek.
  4.Infact, if you read my previous discussions, you would notice that I do say there has existed a unique system exclusive to tamizh or dravida naadu, which later evolved to whatever is now seen as carnatic music.Present carnatic music system looks like a synthesis from different origins. this should have followed yaazh, flute and other instruments along with vocal. this formed the basis for whatever dance form that was unique to tamizh culture. My question is what happened to that art? are there any traces remaining in the forms of people, books or recorded tapes from such people from last generation? or is this art form completely lost into carnatic music, with no traces or people who knew how one panan sang in the court of adhiyaman or if one stretches the theory everything came from tamizh, even to western classical..??
  7.and in north, sanskrit was written in a type of nagari script? isn't it adaptation? the grantha script facilitates letter form to different syllables of same origin: ka, kha, ga and gha etc. where as tamizh script didnot have this. do you notice the differece here?grantha was used for many language texts that had various phonetics.
  
  for your last question: i asked the first question it the forum to get an answer for that.
  
  Panini: yes, those would be good questions toask to at bigger issues like these in this context.
  
  
• From: AT (@ dial-pop9-61.bicnet.net) on: Sat Jul 15 21:37:59 EDT 2000
  
  paNini,
  pataNjali's Yogasutra, was written in Madurai, and not in Kashmir as believed. Many of the Sanskrit authors from Kashmir spent their time in Tamil country in learning. There is the bigger question, where is the tamil version?
  I will post the link to the study done by Mr.Palaniappan from the Indology archives. May be chandra would have it. The need of the day is more study on Sangam Literature.
  
  
• From: paaNini (@ 202.54.33.5) on: Sun Jul 16 01:41:27 EDT 2000
  
  1.could someone tell if there are references to
  music in tolkappiyam?
  2.i had mentioned kerala because if you look
  at their instruments,dances,music etc there seem to be a lot of influence of Tamizh isai and even many of their words.but it definitely is worth a serious consideration and may supply missing links
  
  
• From: Gopal (@ aca4c0b8.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 18 00:38:13 EDT 2000
  
  AT:
  I am surprised at your note about Madurai and patanjali. If it can be proved beyond doubt it would answer many questions. Because, the concept of yoga (introversion) was alien to Vedic poets who were to begin with pantheistic (nature worshipping=extroversion)bards wandering through the gangetic plains. Introversion led these to focus and result was later upanishads. IF so, from
  where they got this new inspiration? Were their teachers the ancestors of our siddhas down in tamizhnadu and kerala?
  Then i have another question, has anybody listened to siddhar songs set to different ragaas..?They seem to set to defined sandhams,though.
  Need of the day is not only just more study on study literature but in an objective, comprehensive,cross-cultural and unprejudiced way.
  
  
• From: ¦À.ºó¾¢Ã§º¸Ãý/Chandra (@ rr-165-122-161.atl.mediaone.net) on: Tue Jul 18 21:01:29 EDT 2000
  
  Gopal:
  your writings are so difficult to understand.
  The English: is it deliberately so or is it natural?
  And the content is even more "confounding" attempting to connect disparate things and often invoking concepts very remote to the subject under discussion.
  
  ----
  anyway,
  for musicological references in tholkAppiyam:
  read "tholkAppiyaththil icaik kuRippuhaL" by prof V.P.K.Sundaram, 1994, International Institute of Tamil Studies.
  It is a short but potent book only 74 pages long.
  
  
  Quickly: someone asked for the mapping of the current names to the old names:
  [pAlai = melakartha]
  
  The following is the main four that were arranged in the paNNup peyarppu system (grahabedham);
  
  [taken from cilappathikAram chapter 3 (arangERRa kAdhai) which describes the full mechanism]
  
  harikambodhi-cem pAlai (mullaip paN)
  natabhairavi-padumalaip pAlai (kuRinjcip paN)
  karaharapriyA-kOdip pAlai (maruthappaN)
  thodi- viLarip pAlai (neydhal)
  
  It has been discovered that tholkAppiyam's cUththiram (tholk:akam: 5) arranges the thiNais in an unsual order (mullai, kuRinjci, marudham, neydhal instead of kuRinjci, mullai, marudham, neydhal) that has been found to be the order of grahabedham; actually that order was used to resolve the issues relating to mapping of names.
  
  more later.
  
  
  
  
• From: Gopal (@ nandi2.lsa.berkeley.edu) on: Tue Jul 18 22:20:36 EDT 2000
  
  Chandra
  In this open forum,I was trying to respond topanini's statements about nada yoga/vedic traits in the context of tamizh/carnatic music. Only then, i had to write in detail much to your despair. I am sorry if You had found the contents remote and dispartate. Incidentally, what i wrote was very basic if one takes music (tamizh or carnatic) as a sadhana, not just as an object of intellectual exercise.
  And if you have any personal comments, you are more welcome to email me...
  
  
• From: AT (@ dialup-63.208.114.112.weehawken1.level3.net) on: Wed Jul 19 18:29:47 EDT 2000
  
  Gopal, this link might give u some clues about patanJali and how myths are created to score political points.
  
  Madurai and Chidambaram:
  The Tamil Cities that Created Important Sanskrit Myths
  by S. Palaniappan
  May 1999
  http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan-patanjali.html
  
  folks,
  to answer many of ur basic questions about "tamizh pann and carnatic ragas" refer the links I gave, it has a lot of information. If u dont know Tamil, espcially for www.tamilisai.com, ask a tamil literate to translate. The information there are enough to clear many doubts.
  
  
• From: AT (@ dhcp194-138.njit.edu) on: Sun Aug 6 01:19:33
  
  Some excerpts from the research paper by Dr.Salem Jayalakshmi:
  
  Raga names are not new to Tamil music. In the list of Tamil pans we find raga names like Takka ragam, soma ragam, mega ragam, tukka ragam, palantakka ragam etc. Through thevaram pans, 23 ragams have been handed over to us, though 103 prominent pans had been mentioned in earlier works. In cankam age there is reference to eleven thousand original pans. But all were not taken in practice. Tamil music says Narperum pankalum Nalvakai Jatiyum meaning that the four major modes and their four jathis Later in Bharatha Sastram and Sangeetha Ratnakaram (12 century A.D.) the scales are mentioned as jathis only(?).
  
  Only during 17th century A.D. Venkatamahi made the system of 72 Melas with 36 suddha melas and 36 vikrutha melas. Though this mela system got established in modern Carnatic music, it has missed to cover the quarter tone systems which
  was advocated in earlier music. It has also missed the entire systems of music by calling the lowest not as 'Suddha note' whereas the natural notes were called suddha notes in earlier music, which is still followed in North Indian Music.
  
  Let us take a few pans and its corresponding ragas in Carnatic Music. Carnatic means very old. Another reference is in 15th century A.D. Sri Purandara Dasar gave a renaissance to South Indian music who belonged to Karnataka State. Carnatic music is common to all Southern States of India the language Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam and Sanskrit follow the same music. The fact was after the 12th Century A.D. when the great kings of chola, Pandia and Pallava dynasties fell down, Tamil Nadu came under the rule of Telugu Naicks and Maharashtrians. Hence the Tamil music took shape in languages like Telugu, Kannada etc. We have to remember that the great Trinity of Karnatic music, Thyagaraja, Muthusami Didshadar,
  Syama Sastri composed their songs living on the bank of Kaveri in Tanjavur. Though the songs are clothed in Telugu, Sanskrit etc, the ragas belong to Tamil music....
  
  Before concluding this paper I would like to present a few facts and factors regarding this most scientific and traditional music. The music system was called by Ilango Adigal the Author of the great epic Cilappatikaram as 'Ashiya Marapu' i.e. a tradition which will never die. This was because that even as Tamil language is very fresh and young,the tamil music which was later termed as Carnatic music was laid on strong foundations. The ragas are serving in tact even after two thousand years and more. I would like to say that this great tradition is like gold which never loses its value...
  
  http://www.tamilisai.com/history/carnat.htm
  
  
• From: Rajkumar Mercier (@ alyon-201-1-1-125.abo.wanadoo.fr) on: Thu Nov 15 10:31:20
  
  Je voudrai des détails, sur les 72 ragams Merkatha.Avec les notes du claviers. Merci
  
  
• From: Lakshman (@ kitchener-ppp111767.sympatico.ca) on: Thu Nov 15 12:00:18
  
  Rajkumar Mercier: If you please post the message in english I might be able to help you.
  
  
• From: kik (@ ts3-164.silcon.com) on: Thu Nov 15 22:19:03
  
  Lakshman: He's saying he wants the details of the 72 melakartha ragams with keyboard notes. The only word I'm not sure about is claviers (I think it's keyboard).
  
  
• From: PPN (@ padma.math.mun.ca) on: Thu Nov 29 09:58:15
  
  In his book on History of Carnatic Music, Rangaramanuja Iyengar states that mathematical permutations and combinations procedure will yield 11991 possible Panns (statrting with the 16 heptatonic spaces (vattappaalai) using the rules Mullai Thembani, and Kurinji Thembani.
  Can anyone explain thee procedures and how does one arrive at the magiv number of 11991?
  Thanks
  
  

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