Topic suggested by Guru Ganesan on Mon Mar 29 15:28:04 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Few years back Maharajapuram Santhanam performed with M S Viswanathan's orchestra. I believe the program was called Sangamam.

Does orchestra type environment have a future in Carnatic music? We have seen western influence by western instruments entering the CM arena, violin, mandolin, guitar etc. Are there chances for the cranatic music accompaniments growing, a full orchestra will be the ultimate?

Is this subject worth discussing?
Guru

Responses:

• From: Ramji (@ 205.177.170.61) on: Tue Apr 6 14:38:33
  
  I had the good fortune of attending the Thyagaraja Aradhana in Cleveland last weekend. A memorable event was the ensemble from Miami University of Chicago( including a string quartet) led and coordinated by Prof. Srinivasan. Among other things, they played Thayagaraja's Dharini in Sudha Saveri. I was ecstatic.
  
  
• From: Chandra (@ dragonfire3.delta-air.com) on: Mon Oct 18 13:38:24
  
  Orchestra is not alien to carnatic music.
  
  Carnatic music (musical tamil) must return to its old glory, viz., icaith thamiz with full-blown orchestras (as described in arangERRa kAthai of cilappathikAram) wherever it is appropriate.
  
  Current carnatic music has been shrunk from its original form considerably. The current styles in vogue are suitable for only a particular range of life situations. The original carnatic music of cangkam and post-cangkam era covered the whole gamut: akam (private, romantic or bhakti) and puRam ( public, royal/governmental/institutional occasions such as independence celebrations, public occasions such as say opening of a monument, war occasions etc.). There was also music grammar for music rendered in the context of various sports such as Ucal (swing), ammAnai, kandhukam (pandhu = ball)
  The latter category needs a very rousing rendering of music and only orchestral rendering can provide that aura.
  
  Let us not keep on shrinking carnatic music and make it artificially ineffective. One important reason is that in the last two hundred years there has been excessive emphasis on bhakti themes only. Another important reason is that in the last few decades Tamil drama vanished and movies took over and western music has completely taken root. We must have Tamil operas with pure Tamil music.
  
  Actually cilappathikAram's third kANDam (vanjcik kANDam) is an excellent fit for operas. Especially the chapter "vanjcinak kAdhai" where the chEran emperor's expedition to the north is decided upon and orders are issued to proclaim it publicly. It will make a world class opera. It will beat any written by any other cultures east or west.
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wo072.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Oct 18 14:18:03
  
  I prefer that Carnatic music should keep the old instruments, not like the saxophone, or any other "new age", instruments, I believe the Carnatic music should keep the old tradition of ghatam, veena, tanpura, mridangam, moorsing, violin, etc..
  
  
• From: bb (@ wolf.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Oct 18 14:20:17
  
  chandra, what instruments were used in these operas?
  
  
• From: Chandra (@ dragonfire1.delta-air.com) on: Mon Oct 18 19:19:22
  
  Mani,
  Surely it is good to preserve the traditional instruments. I haven't liked the quality of the sound issuing forth from Kadri's saxophone. It somehow has too much of higher harmonics that causes noticeable irritation. Only one album by him has the necessary pleasantness.
  In any case, we must also remember that we have to create new instruments that conform to the spirit of icaith thamiz. After all violoin itself is only one or two centuries old but it has become the mainstay of our music! Keyboards such as ahrmonium should never be accepted as they cann never obey our musical system. A western shcolar on Indian music has lamented that the harmonium is the bane of Indian classical music! viloin can be tuned to our gamaka oriented music.
  [To Balaji too]
  And we must remember that we have lost dozens of musical instruements in the last two centuries especially within the last 700-800 years after the decline of the traditional Tamil empires.
  Until then there were dozens of types of drums and these types classified according to akam, puRam, akappuRam, puRappuRam etc!
  
  There were very small drums such as the one that civan handles and very huge ones like the one said to be in thiruvArUr temple...said to be one story tall. It is said that the only musician who can play that is gone with nobody trained in the art of handling that let alone in the art of constructing it!
  So we can research the old musical texts as well as literary texts for clues and look at the western instruments and see how they can help in inventing new instruments that suit the spirit of our music.
  e.g. we have had conches, vayir (long horns like thArai) etc...we can bring them back.
  
  As someone said (found in Structure clothes chain stores):
  "Modern man associates himself with the past not to reflect it like a mirror but to capture its spirit and apply it in a modern way".
  
  The spirit of icaith thamiz is in gamakam, akam/puRam etc.
  Choirs were there...before mAdhavi started her performance, a choir sang two vArams(or liturgical songs...song in praise of god) standing on the right-hand side of the stage. But we see only solo performances! And current carnatic music community thinks choral performances are cinematic!
  
  Nowadays we find that only one melodic instrument accompanies the vocalist! Whereas cilampu talks about flute, lute and some other melodic instruments simulataneously when mAdhavi gave her performance.
  
  Balaji I can give more details of the instruments later.
  
  While it is easy to blame and despise movies, we must also remember that the classical music community also must not destroy the culture by being baselessly conservative like with orchestras and choirs and work with dramatists to see how we can revive the full glory of our ancient music system.
  
  
• From: Chandra (@ dragonfire1.delta-air.com) on: Mon Oct 18 19:21:07
  
  Please read the phrase above "...we have lost ...within the last two *millenia* especially within the last 700-800 years...".
  
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wl073.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Oct 18 19:39:49
  
  Chandra,
  
  Yes, not to discourage Kadri Gopalnath's saxophone, but I do find it not equivalent to Carnatic music, his father was a Nadaswaram Vidwan, and he had some training, BUT, I feel that he should have followed his father's footsteps, and played the Nadaswaram, but like I said, I'm not discouraging him or anything like that, I just can't accept ANY "new age" instruments in Carnatic musicm, I feel that makes the old fashioned Carnatic music, into some new age type of music......
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 13.austin-06-07rs.tx.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Oct 18 20:49:21
  
  Mani,
  I do agree that we should not lose our old traditioins, but, for good or bad i dont judge here, breaking the traditions is what carnatic music history has shown us and i think thats what CMs all about. i see the entry of new instruments like mandolin, sax as evolution's selection of sustenance. If music doesnt evolve, it will die.
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wj062.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Oct 19 05:47:43
  
  Vasu,
  
  Yes, that is understandable, we must preserve it, but like I said, to me keeping the old tradition alive, is better, remember the old CM's? Palani Subramaniam Pillai, Palghat Mani Iyer, Alathur Brothers, Hyderabad Brothers, etc. I believe in tradition, and maintaining something that has been preserved and used for centuries......
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wl054.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Oct 19 20:58:16
  
  I have a question, the pot that is used in Carnatic music, or as it is called "ghatam", is that the Andhra name for pot?? I'm curious, because it sounds "Andhra", and it is used in Kerala, only describing the musical pot itself, because in Kerala, the real name for "ghatam", or the pot for only everyday use, is called "kalam", and the wide mouth pots in Kerala, are called "chatti".
  
  
• From: Chandra (@ user-38lccb9.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Oct 19 21:21:29
  
  Mani,
  "ghatam" is the Skt. word for "pot".
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wl041.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Oct 20 14:11:05
  
  Oh, alright, it just sounds "Andhra", because their language has a lot of "ga", and "gu" sounds.:o)
  
  
• From: Ganeshan (@ ) on: Tue Apr 13 21:28:23
  
  I believe that over the last several decades, Tamil Music (Pann Issai) was 'lost' as Carnatic music emerged and then CM has again lost many things. It has certainly shrunk and lost its appeal and definitely lost ground to film music which is influenced and often based on western harmonies as opposed to the gamakams of Indian music. However, it has not lost its uniqueness. Unlike Hindustani music that has completely lost all the gamakams by adopting the harmonium (the only musical instrument that I think should be banished - it has neither the harmonies of western music, nor the gamakams or eastern music - on the other hand it has such a poor quality compared to the accordion because of the cheap brass reeds used) Carnatic music has retained most of its beauty in spite of the in-fighting. People like Kadri Gopalnath, Prasanna, Nikhil Joshi, Mandolin Srinivas and AKC Natarajan are all adding to the beauty of CM. We need to encourage such progress and make CM more attractive than film music. We are in a global village. While ARRahman has produced some beauties such as Kannoddu Kaanpathellaam he has also produced some absolute trash - such as Columbus.
  
  For my part I have done some pioneering work in CM, learning as I go and soon those of you who are looking forward to hearing CM in full orchestras will have the oppotunity to hear such.
  
  In the meantime, can any of you please let me have Prof Srinivasans contact details?
  
  You will find some details of work on my site http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ganeshan
  
  and by clicking on the archives
  on
  www.cs.xu.edu
  
  Please let me have your constructive views. Thanks
  
  
  
  
  
• From: shanti (@ cpe-203-45-4-47.vic.bigpond.net.au) on: Fri Apr 23 22:42:08 EDT 2004
  
  Hi, all i would like to say is why is that only the Brahmins are allowed to learn the carnatic music? Aren't those who belonged to other caste are not allowed to learn or are they not good enough?
  
  

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