Topic started by Isai Rasigai (@ bstnma1-ar1-189-197.bstnma1.dsl.gtei.net) on Mon Aug 13 16:30:20 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi Everybody

Would love to hear facts, stories about raga origins. Any information on why ragas were named the way they are, who named them, who found some ragas would be greatly appreciated. I am sure most of us would know about Katapayaadhe Sangya. Other interesting facts and statistics - all in one place would be interesting to read :-)

Thanks in advance
Isai Rasigai

Responses:

• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.228) on: Tue Aug 14 12:47:59
  
  :( no response
  
  Let me start with a few :)
  
  GNB is known to have invented the following ragas:
  
  Shivashakthi
  Amritha Behag
  
  Muththaiah Bhagavathar - Niroshta
  
  BMK - Mahathi, Jana Sammodhini (?!) - there is a dispute here and we discussed this in a thread sometime back :-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.228) on: Tue Aug 14 12:55:49
  
  PattaNam Subramanya Iyer - Kathana Kuthoohalam
  
  Did GNB find Vandhana Dharini??
  
  
• From: Lakshman (@ guelph-ppp217643.sympatico.ca) on: Tue Aug 14 14:50:21
  
  Isai Rasigai: Apart from Niroshta, Muttiah Bhagavatar is given crdit for the following new raga innovations.
  Vijayasarasvati, Hamsagamani, Karnaranjani, Pashupatipriya, Budhamanohari, Guharanjani, Sumanapriya, Hamsadipaka, Kokilabhashini, Alankari, Valaji, Sarangamalhar, Gaudamalhar, Mayapradipa, Vinadhari, Harinarayani, Nagabhushani, Hamsanandi(?), Chakrapradipta, Vijayanagari, Urmika, Gurupriya and Manorama
  
  
• From: Lakshman (@ guelph-ppp217660.sympatico.ca) on: Tue Aug 14 14:57:30
  
  GNB is said to have devised Shivashakti, Amrtabehag and Sarangatarangini. He has composed songs in these ragas as well.
  
  
• From: RR (@ krdlfirewall.krdl.org.sg) on: Tue Aug 14 23:04:31
  
  IR: an interesting topic. I have always been curious about why the ragas are named the way they are.
  I think we know a few simple ones already: Sankarabaranam, Niroshta.
  
  Is 'shanmukapriya' a favorite raga of Lord Shanmuga/Muruga ? what about 'rasikapriya'.. I doesn't sound like meaning: a raga liked by Rasika's. We can hardly hear it in any concerts :)
  
  I have always wondered about 'vanaspathi', 'Kaapi/Kaafi' :)
  
  
  
• From: RR (@ krdlfirewall.krdl.org.sg) on: Tue Aug 14 23:19:35
  
  This is an interesting article by Krishna (need to tolerate his somewhat weird transliteration):
  
  ---------
  Re: can someone tell me the etymology of raga names
  
  Clearly, the original query was about "etymology" while the answer was about "nomenclature". I will not say anything more about the misinterpretation of the question (or, if the answer was an appropriate one, the implied ill-framing of the question).
  
  Although the katapayAdhe sangKya serves as the nomenclature of mAELa rAgas, it is not an etymology of the names of even these 72 rAgas, to say nothing of the thousands of janya rAgas which have names. Some of the mAELa rAga names are badly fractured sa~skRth names ("kEravANE" is a corruption of "gervANE")---perhaps there is an `etymology' of rAga names in this rather limited sense.
  
  To me, the phrase "etymology of a rAga name" means one or more of the following, in addition to the trivial given of the meaning of the name:
  
  How the name of the rAga relates to its musical origin.
  For example, is the name of a janya rAga associated/derived/connected with the name of its janaka mAELa? A classic example here would be "nAtta" and "cala-nAtta".
  
  How the name of the rAga relates to its musical qualities, independent of its musical origins.
  For example, a rAga which is considered by its creator, musicologists, critics, and audiences (in other words, universally) to be a rAga that alleviates emotions of sadness or sorrow, and presumably endows happiness and metaphoric sunshine, might be named "SOka-nevAranE" (duh! that's about the extent of my imagination, but I hope you get the picture).
  Of course, we all know the story of muththusvAme dhEkShethar and "amRtha-varSheNE", or thAnsaen and "mAEG-malhAr" and "dhEpak".
  
  For what non-musical (and perhaps personal/social) reasons did the particular rAga get its name.
  For example, rAgas "narase~hABaraNam" and "dhorI" (creations of bAlamuraLekRShNa), or "preyadharSenE" and "suBalakShmE" (creations of amjadh ale KA~) are named for specific people.
  The many "meyA~-ke-"s of hendhusthAne music say something about their origins, but this something is not anything about their musical origins. In other words, the name "meyA~-ke-" is equally applicable to both a rAga and a painting because the name is only incidentally associated with music.
  
  I would also like to point out now why I put the word "etymology" in quotes when talking about the corruption of "gervANE" to "kEravANE". This is because I consider the "etymology of rAga names" to be different from the "etymology of names". The origin of the word "kEravANE" is simply the etymology of its name (so that a woman named "kEravANE", when asked about her name, would be able to relate exactly the same story, as would the 21st mAELa rAga, if mAELa rAgas are capable of doing such things). There is nothing specifically `musical' in this story.
  
  Now, is there an "etymology of rAga names" in karNAtaka music in any of these senses?
  
  There is NO consistent or usable etymology (in the sense of the musical origin or characteristics; my senses (1) and (2) above) of the names of rAgas in karNataka music (things are slightly better in hendhusthAne music; more on that later). The few rare examples of where rAgas with related names are also related in their origin, are outstanding exceptions to the rule that otherwise operates in the nomenclature of rAgas in karNAtaka music i.e. the complete lack of musical reasons (of history and evolution) in naming a rAga.
  
  Thus, all the myriad "ranjjaNE"s or "preyA"s in karNAtaka music have nothing (necessarily) in common (musically speaking) except the suffix. "ShaNmuKapreyA", as the name of the 56th mela rAga, has nothing in its characteristics that endears it to "ShaNmuKa" (except as a post-facto reconstructed story). "kanakAnggE" does not conjure images of golden limbs, except to those of excessively vivid imaginations or influenced by potent fungi. "SudhDha-dhanyAsE" is not a refined (i.e. dehydrogenated dalda) cousin of "dhanyAsE", and neither have any musical connection worthy of note with "mAruva-dhanyAsE".
  
  For the most part, the names of rAgas in karNAtaka music just are. You may be able to, with limited success, get very specific stories behind the names given by modern composers to rAgas that they have created (for example, the first widely popular 4-note rAga "mahathE", created by bAlamuraLekRShNa, was named for the 4-note vENa played by nAradha [one source for this story is the Doordarshan program Sadhana]). But this hardly serves as the basis for a coherent comparative study (based on musical principles) of the nomenclature.
  
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  In hendhusthAne music, there is atleast some method to the madness of nomenclature since it makes sense to talk about the "kAnhra", "kAUns", "belAval" or "thOdE" group of rAgas as being a cohesive and musically related entity (in the senses (1) and (2) above).
  
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  Selecting names for rAgas is much like the process of selecting names for babies---the analogy of rAgas as creations much like babies is particularly apt. Some people chose the names of their own parents for their babies. Some people choose "cute" names for their babies. Some people name their babies for famous personalities. So it is with rAgas.
  
  
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ 96-pool2.ras11.vahen.tii-dial.net) on: Sun Sep 2 20:41:08
  
  Hello, IR. Missed this thread.
  
  It appears that although Ramaswami Dikshitar created and named Hamsadhwani, his most illustrious descendant may not have any raaga creations ?? But NataNarayani and Devaraanji are 2 janyaas with MD's krities that should be considered. Lakshman can probably clear this up.
  
  
• From: narayanan (@ 194.193.249.13) on: Wed Sep 5 11:24:58
  
  Nado:
  MD created and named Amrithavarshini.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ pppa15-resalefallschurch1-2r7208.dialinx.net) on: Wed Sep 5 11:37:15
  
  Thanks Narayanan.
  Biut there seem to be 2 such krities by NarayanaTirtha and also Lalithadasa. Devaamritavarshini by Tyg. is probably different.
  
  
• From: Ramaprasad (@ 204.154.176.49) on: Wed Sep 5 21:13:15
  
  Narayanan,
  
  I doubt MD naming Amritavarshini .. It is listed
  in CDP anubandha ; ( even Hamsadhvani is mentioned
  there)
  
  Assuning RD was a deciple of MVM, even before he
  wrote the rAgalakshaNa, it is possible that the
  name which Ramaswami Dikshita gave, was listed by
  Muddu Venkata Makhi. ( I do not know this for a
  fact, but possible). But no way Amritavarshini
  could have made its way in the anubandha if it
  was Muttuswami, who named it.
  
  So we could conclude that the name was present
  befrore, and MD was the first to compose in it.
  
  
  Nadopasaska :
  Narayana Tirtha's composition do not have their
  original mattu just like Annamacharya's and
  Purandara dasa's composition. For that matter
  I have heard an Annamayya sankeertana in
  Amritavarshini.
  
  Devamritavarshini is a totally different raga,
  also called nAdachintAmani, it is a janya of
  Kharaharapriya and the kriti "evarani niRNayinchEdi rA" is quite well known.
  
  Ramaprasad
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ pppa83-resalefallschurch1-2r7208.dialinx.net) on: Wed Sep 5 22:22:59
  
  Hi, KVR, I agree Devam vsni...is totally different. I mentioned it as contemporary to MD's time as a known raaga name. But given the aversion of the Dikshitars to Kharaharapriya, they could well have ignored it. In my opinion it will be difficult to find raagas created by MD. His self-imposed exercise to compose in each of the known 72 melas is indicative of this.
  
  On these lines, another raaga ascribed to Tyagaraja named Supradeepa ( varashiki vahana ) is also found in Sangraha Chudamani of Govinda Dikshitar.
  
  
• From: kartik (@ 203.200.15.20) on: Sat Sep 8 04:52:10
  
  Did MD create ragas like saranga nattai,mohana nattai,madhavamanohari,bhogachayanattai , suddha saveri(shuddha dha variant)?.Are there pieces in these ragas before MD?
  
  
• From: kartik (@ 203.200.15.20) on: Sat Sep 8 04:55:57
  
  Also , Lakshman though Urmika is attributed to HMB, i think it is misattributed because Pallavi Sesha iyer was HMB's senior.Again, i think thyagaraja has composed in manorama.I am not sure though.Is the raga of HMB jayanarayani or harinarayani?Jayanarayani is kharaharapriya sans the nishadham.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ pppa53-resalefallschurch1-2r7208.dialinx.net) on: Sun Sep 9 19:05:25
  
  BhogachaayaNaatai is asampurna mela equivalent to Vaagadhiswari, cannot be MD janya.
  
  
• From: kartik (@ 203.200.15.20) on: Mon Sep 10 20:59:18
  
  Nado>Yes,BCN is Vagadeeshwari indeed.Many thanks once again.
  
  
• From: kartik (@ 203.200.15.20) on: Mon Sep 10 20:59:26
  
  Nado>Yes,BCN is Vagadeeshwari indeed.Many thanks once again.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ pppa28-resalefallschurch1-2r7208.dialinx.net) on: Tue Sep 11 13:28:32
  
  Madhavamanohari may be candidate along with Devaranji and NataNarayani, Kartik. A sweet siren suggested to me that Dikshitars may only avoid Karaharapriya out of respect to Tyagaraja, just as AnandaBhairavi connection to Syama Sastri. This seems reasonable. Another explanation may be that in the asampurna scheme Raga Shri takes the place of Karaharapriya. It is however not clear how Mukhari ( with MD krities ) was treated as janya of the asampurna mela Shri.
  
  
• From: aftab ditta (@ pool-138-88-101-187.res.east.verizon.net) on: Sun Feb 9 14:33:10
  
  This is just a comment on Nadopasaka's response to "Re: can someone tell me the etymology of raga names"
  maybe he really wanted to know the etymology. there is no reason to be pretentious when trying to educate people who are volunteering to learn something complex. obviously you know a lot, but make your teaching a little more appealing.
  
  
  
• From: Ramanathan (@ dialpool-210-214-131-139.maa.sify.net) on: Fri Jan 23 01:48:11
  
  plese send me a souitalbe name the following descrtiption
  
  Natchathiram : Punarpoosam
  
  Rasi: Magaram
  
  Laknam: Kadakam
  
  date of Birth: 07.01.2004 time 8:43 pm
  
  

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