Topic started by Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on Wed Jul 17 19:42:02 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I wanted to start a topic on the thavil and collect whatever information we can about it.

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: nick (@ 99.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk) on: Mon Sep 9 05:19:47
  
  I agree about modulation, and I think it is a valuable part of mridangam playing. I guess there is a kind of natural modulation occurs as the artists 'warm up'. I really wish I knew more about the songs to enable me to think clearly about this one.
  
  
• From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Mon Sep 9 15:19:34
  
  I do not think the songs in carnatic music have any dynamics in themselves. In western music, the pieces are composed in such a way that certain parts are played softly (like a part that pictures a park or something like tranquil like that), and loudly (like a thunderstorm scence). So dynamics is solely reliant on the artist. It's just like mridangam cholus: the artist decides how to play what. People like Pazhani were pioneers in this field.
  
  
• From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Wed Sep 11 18:23:55
  
  It hasn't occurred in the US, yet, but I was wondering if organizers in other countries have arranged lecdem tours, rather than just concert tours. I believe that such tours are of great benefit to people who are not very familiar with the music system, or for people who are not familiar with certain aspects of carnatic music. Of such tours, I think the team of Kaliamoorthy and Karaikudi Mani would be extremely educative, as most people have no idea how the thavil/mridangam system works. With such tours, we will be spreading our great tradition and knowledge in music to people across the globe.
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net) on: Wed Sep 11 20:24:10
  
  In my non-professional opinion, carnatic music mostly seems to lack "fun", i.e., have you guys seen an ad (not sure for what) where the guy plays a water xylophone and the girl is on the violin and they are dancing around a table in a restaurant? I can never visualise carnatic music in such a spontaneous moment.
  
  Nevertheless the kunnakudi/valayapatti cd I was talking about is an exception, it is FUN. I just bought it by the way, I had listened to it long back when I was in school, to hear it again was a pleasure.
  
  
• From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Wed Sep 11 22:35:42
  
  Interesting comment.
  
  Classical music is fun only on one basis: you should know something about the music system. Only then can you appreciate it entirely. For instance, if you know the thalam part of carnatic music, you can even put thalam during a concert. This can be an exhilirating experience, esp. during a thani, as you can see all the creativity and brilliance of the percussionists. Unfortunately, western music lacks this participation aspect. By any means, the idea of keeping thalam is indeed a novel one.
  
  Hence I urge not only you but everyone who feels like you to learn something about the music system! Classical music isn't called classy for no reason: the intricacies that it has will bring one much more satisfation than any pop music (or the table music you referred to) ever can.
  
  Try some sites, incluindg my webpage (http://www.geocities.com/rohan_krishnamurthy) and some of the links I have included for info on carnatic music.
  
  Have fun learning the system!
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d150-35-51.home.cgocable.net) on: Wed Sep 11 23:00:53
  
  Dear Rohan:
  Thanks for the link. I do have a wee bit of carnatic knowledge (I learnt it for 3 years while in school). My point is not that I don't enjoy carnatic music, but that it doesn't suit all my moods :)
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-98.systems.cogeco.net) on: Wed Sep 11 23:14:46
  
  Hey Rohan:
  Just visited your site. 15 eh? good for you. Looks like you are headed in the right direction!
  
  
• From: pramodh (@ acb5e94a.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Sep 12 03:29:52
  
  Talking of voice modulation, I feel it is not suited for Carnatic music and that is why it is not there in the system! Blind following of the West is still inherent amongst Indians. They dont realise the greatness of their system, think it is inferior, and merely try to copy the West.
  
  
• From: pramodh (@ acb5e94a.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Sep 12 03:36:32
  
  I have listened to the same kriti played by TN Krishnan and Lalgudi. TNK does a bit of modulation but Lalgudi plays it conventionally. Both are great violinists, but on this occasion Lalgudi's rendering was far more enjoyable.
  
  Carnatic music was not meant to have any of these, and people who enjoy dynamics, harmony etc should look towards those systems of music that provide these rather than trying to find fault with the melody.
  
  
  
  
• From: pramodh (@ acb5e94a.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Sep 12 03:39:24
  
  Dont forget Rohan, that there is something in Carnatic music called raga alapana, which is one aspect that is most enjoyed by a lot of rasikas.
  
  
• From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Thu Sep 12 05:49:17
  
  Punnahai, Carnatic music is not about partying, sure, but it is very funky, very jazzy and often very high-energy.
  
  
• From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Thu Sep 12 06:03:44
  
  Rohan, lecdems are a good idea, but, in my experience, carnatic musicians are very bad at explaining carnatic music. This is, I think, because of the way it is taught. The traditional student is expected to listen, memorise and not ask 'why?'. The theory is full of definitions in terms of other definitions with little or no explanations. (eg a korvai has two parts: the first part is called the first part and the second part is called the second part....). I remember my teacher being quite upset at people asking 'why?'. After living here for eight years his mind-set and teaching have changed. But many artists from India do not find it easy to *explain* --as eg a UK or US person understands it. So the workshop may be held by a great senior artist, but the information would probably be better presented vy a more junior artist who had lived in the West. (Massive generalisations being made here, of course)
  
  
• From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Thu Sep 12 06:19:25
  
  pramodh, in what context are you reminding us about alapana, I'm missing your point. Alapana, to me, is the soul of the music; but lots of people don't like it at all.
  
  
• From: pramodh (@ acbaf26c.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Sep 12 07:06:49
  
  Its just one of the many points to make to remind ourselves that Carnatic Music is self sufficient, and does not need any adaptations from Western or Hindustani Music.This is the context.
  
  Improvisations are OK just as a variations. But they havent been brought in because the melody in Carnatic music and the songs are less superior to other systems.
  
  
  
  
• From: pramodh (@ acbaf26c.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Sep 12 07:15:07
  
  I do agree that explanations are not always given. But i think this has been deliberately done within the system to promote the artiste's inquisitiveness and they are left on their own to find the answers to some of the unanswered questions. This is probably reflecting on the way it is taught.
  
  Take a look at KV Narayanaswamy's gurukula training with Ariyakudi. KVN himself mentions that he was hardly taught anything by the great master. We all know how great a musician he became.
  
  On the other hand its difficult to explain whether people drop out from training because of this. NIck,did you feel like dropping out or did you want to know more?
  
  
• From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Thu Sep 12 09:56:56
  
  No, I didn't get put off, but it was (is) frustrating sometimes. My teacher grew up in the traditional system. Many traditional teachers are (I am told) are not at all free with their knowledge. My teacher always has been. I think even when he was teaching in India this was the case: he has changed a lot in his years of living in London, even though most of his students are Sri Lankan children, they are London-brought-up kids with a lot of London attitudes. He has also worked hard at learning English so that he can teach those not fluent in Tamil (and those of us who know none). If you want to know you only have to ask, and I think over the years the "because it is" type answers have become fewer.
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d150-35-51.home.cgocable.net) on: Thu Sep 12 10:36:35
  
  >>Many traditional teachers are (I am told) are not at all free with their knowledge. <<
  
  I think this might have something to do with Indian knowledge transfer mechanisms. I have heard that some ayurvedic specialists having some restriction that they can transfer the knowledge to a sishya only at death bed. Many secrets have been lost because there was no one around at the given time.
  
  
• From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Thu Sep 12 15:22:22
  
  I agree with Nick. In general, carnatic music has not been taught well. Many instances existed in the past, i.e. my guru under Pazhani, Palghat Raghu under Mani Iyer, KVN under Ariyakudi, etc. etc., etc, which show how little many of the students learned directly from their gurus.
  
  Learning from a big stalwart is like learning at a reputed college: you learn on your own. For instance, in colleges like Harvard and Yale, the students are forced to learn on their own. The professors hardly teach anything as they are more worried about their research. SImilarly, learning under someone like Pazhani or Ariyakudi requires learning by hearing and listening. But what is also important is thta the students of these maestros (or instituions) have the capabilities of learning throguh seuch a manner. All of the students under Pazhani and Ariyakudi had the ability to learn from him w/o direct training, just as people in Harvard can learn by themselves.
  
  Things have drastically changed in recent times. Students are no longer willing to learn in such a fashion as it is impractical. My guru, for one, spends much time with each of his students and tells them how things were designed, by who it was designed, etc. Of course, he still leaves alot of things for us to do on our own, namely fundamental concepts.
  
  Anyhow, this new system of teaching is a leap in the right direction, as people who are interested in the music but do not have the "genius" capabilities of learning can still learn the music, and perhaps also become very good (if not great) at it.
  
  I also agree with Nick that younger people do do a better job with explaining, as they have had such training themselves and know how useful that can be.
  
  
• From: Rohan (@ 24.247.121.197.kzo.mi.chartermi.net) on: Mon Sep 16 15:04:10
  
  Does anyone know of any popular thvail players today, other than kaliamoorthy sir and palanivel sir?
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-98.systems.cogeco.net) on: Mon Sep 16 18:41:43
  
  Rohan:
  What about Valayapatti?
  
  

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