Hinduism, Initial concept of Shiva, Trinity...

Thread started by Chappani on 3rd May 2012 11:08 AM

Friends,

I was going through an Article about Lord Shiva in "Week magazine" this week. it talks about who was Shiva, his characteristics etc and then ends up how we started worshiping Shiva Lingam - what exactly it is etc, it would be a surprise for many of us here, even though we frequent Shiva temples.

Some questions crepped up in my mind when I was reading this article and digesting the facts(so called). Initially in the subcontinent there was mainly Shiva worshiping including the Harappa and Mohenjudharo civilizations(if you see aged old temples of India from Kashmir to Kanyakumari there are all Shiva temples - Vishnu temples are relatively new). Shiva should have been the god for Creation and Protection - typical duties of a God as per a human mind.

When exactly did the new gods Brahma and Vishnu get in to our society? the concept of Trinity come in and each got specific departments assigned - Brahma for Creation, Vishnu for Protection and Shiva for Destruction (Do we need a God for destruction??? is destruction a portfolio held by a God)??? Why can't one God fulfill all these demands, why did we think that god cannot multitask and do all these tasks parallely?? Also not very sure where is the Demarcation between Creation and Protection?? Creation also involves protection right?? starting from Conception till delivery I thought creation and protection go hand in hand - Only if the Sperm and Egg is protected can the Conception happen, only if the Fetus is protected the Baby can be delivered????

I was reading a book on similarities between Hindu god Brahma and Semitic Prophet Abraham (Christianity/ Jewish - Abraham and Islamic - Ibrahim). He is a old, bearded man said to have born in a place called "OOR" (Tamil word oor for a place) and then wandered west propagating against Idol worshiping - Is this the reason why we don't have Idols of him? as per Hindu traditions his wife Name is Sara-Swathi (Swathi is white in Sanskrit, lady with white dress and her name should be something like Sara) a very intelligent and good looking lady - as per Semitic religions Abraham/ Ibrahim's wife is Sarah (look at the close similarities in names!!!!) who was also very intelligent, learned and good looking.
Also one more commonalty between the two Sarah and Sarah-Swathi is that both are supposed to be daughter's of Abraham/ Brahma - whom the father married - its incest in both the religions (some say as Brahma is the creator, so he had to marry someone he created as there was no one else to offer him his daughter - this is debatable topic).

My question is: Looks like one group of people who were part/ influenced by the Semetic religion moved into India in some historic timeline, who considered Brahma as their roots, worshiped him and then looking into the local trend of religion which was Shiva worshiping, brought in the concept of Trinity as part of unification??? When they brought in the concept of Trinity to maintain their strong hold they added Brahma in the first and then moved the local god to the last???

Please flood in your thoughts on what you think about this.....

Responses:

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From: PARAMASHIVAN on 5th December 2012 03:05 PM [Full View]

Originally Posted by Sunil_M88

I feel that material possessions is a blanket term i.e. if you want to want to devote your life to god then do you seriously have to give up material possessions.

Who said that ?? You don’t have to give up any material objects to attain the knowledge of your self, you can use materials for your day to day life, but don’t become emotionally attach to it.

Eg. You use a car to go to work, do shopping etc, but if some thing happens to your car (Lost/stolen/Damaged) you should not show any emotions, if there is no emotion towards any object, then there is no attachment.
From: Sunil_M88 on 5th December 2012 08:14 PM [Full View]

I was merely paraphrasing but I should have given the exact quote -

So
from practical experience we can observe that one is attractive due to
(1) wealth, (2) power, (3) fame, (4) beauty, (5) wisdom and (6)
renunciation. One who is in possession of all six of these opulences at
the same time, who possesses them to an unlimited degree, is understood
to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. These opulences of the
Godhead are delineated by Paräçara Muni, a great Vedic authority.
We have seen many rich persons, many powerful persons, many famous
persons, many beautiful persons, many learned and scholarly persons,
and persons in the renounced order of life unattached to material
possessions. But we have never seen any one person who is unlimitedly
and simultaneously wealthy, powerful, famous, beautiful, wise and
unattached, like "God", in the history of humanity.

It's always a pleasure to read your comments, sir and I thoroughly enjoyed it! Though I still have a tiny nitpick as I'm still not convinced by "Moksha" being a result of our mental capabilities. i.e. if god created us then did he give us personality or did we develop that ourselves? Does this define the line between humans and the supernatural?

BTW Jaap is a Punjabi variant of the words you've listed.

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

God has no necessity of our prayers, our devotion, our renunciation, or our moral life. You cannot dictate what other people should or should not do.

Pardon me

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

I didn't get what your point is here at all. As for "proving anything to God", God does not need any proof of our divinity. It is we who miss it. Therefore it is we ourselves who have to remember it. The result of this remembrance is the destruction of the cause of sorrow once and for all.

That's what I meant but my lack of vocabulary let my expression down.
From: anbu_kathir on 6th December 2012 09:24 AM [Full View]

Originally Posted by Sunil_M88

So
from practical experience we can observe that one is attractive due to
(1) wealth, (2) power, (3) fame, (4) beauty, (5) wisdom and (6)
renunciation. One who is in possession of all six of these opulences at
the same time, who possesses them to an unlimited degree, is understood
to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. These opulences of the
Godhead are delineated by Paräçara Muni, a great Vedic authority.
We have seen many rich persons, many powerful persons, many famous
persons, many beautiful persons, many learned and scholarly persons,
and persons in the renounced order of life unattached to material
possessions. But we have never seen any one person who is unlimitedly
and simultaneously wealthy, powerful, famous, beautiful, wise and
unattached, like "God", in the history of humanity.

This is indeed true as a comparison between the capabilities of the Lord and the capabilities of individuals.

I'm still not convinced by "Moksha" being a result of our mental capabilities. i.e.

I didn't say Moksha is a 'result' of our mental capabilities. I said it is in our own hands. A popular analogy for this is that the Lord's grace is like the ever present wind and the individual is like a boat on the sea. If the individual by his effort (i.e renunciation and desire to know god) raises the mast, then the wind takes care of everything that is required to reach the destination. There is no "effort" put forth by the wind to do this. The effort is all by the boatman, who understands the point of being in a boat, how it works, what is detrimental to reaching the goal and what is useful, and has the courage enough to raise the mast. All these are in the hands of the boatman only, not the wind. In the same way Moksha is completely dependent on the individual's desire and mental qualifications. The rest is God's grace, which is ever-present, about which we need only to be thankful for but not bother about.

if god created us then did he give us personality or did we develop that ourselves? Does this define the line between humans and the supernatural?

There are loaded words here - like "God" , "Creation", etc., that it is slightly difficult to answer the questions before defining them properly (I generally use them only from a utility point of view). But the point is not difficult to make. The mental and physical characteristics possessed by an individual is because of a portion of aggregate of actions done in the past (lives). This is known as Praarabhda Karma. 'God' as such is merely a facilitator, an entity which lends existence to the individual and all the possible shades that he can take. In the particularity of the shades, God plays no part, and it is purely the individuals free will which decides. The same law governs all beings, including plants, animals, human beings, and supernaturals.

All this can be accepted or rejected as blind belief. From another perspective, these questions don't matter at all. We find ourselves right now with so many issues and problems in life. We find ourselves incapable to handle many of them, afraid, incomplete, insecure and bound. Is there any solution at all? How does it matter *how* we came about to this issue? The house is burning. Do we see it? If we see it, we take action to protect it. We don't stop to ask how it started burning in the first place. That we can bother after we have extinguished the fire. Similarly these questions on "how" and "why" will subside after our issues (of being insecure, afraid, self-loathing, guilt, hurt, sorrow) are dealt with. And to deal with them, to cure them, such that they don't reappear again, is called finding God.

BTW Jaap is a Punjabi variant of the words you've listed.

I didn't know that, pardon me.

Love and Light.
From: PARAMASHIVAN on 10th December 2012 09:20 PM [Full View]

When the very source of creation is within you, all the solutions are within you.but you spend your entire life seeking the creator outside by various methods / Idiologies known as Religion. This is why you are not getting any where! The source of creation is within you, if you remove the curtains of "Maya" , you would find the creator within you!
From: anbu_kathir on 11th December 2012 08:03 AM [Full View]

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

When the very source of creation is within you, all the solutions are within you. The source of creation is within you, if you remove the curtains of "Maya" , you would find the creator within you!

What is this 'you'? What is the meaning of 'within'? What is Maya? How do you say there is a creator?

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

but you spend your entire life seeking the creator outside by various methods / Idiologies known as Religion. This is why you are not getting any where!

What is 'religion' and how do you ascertain that it is useless?

Love and Light.

P.S : Asking these questions out of curiosity and out of an interest in clarity.
From: PARAMASHIVAN on 11th December 2012 04:06 PM [Full View]

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

What is this 'you'?

The Cosmic energy within us and ever single atoms in the cosmos.

Body - is just an accumulation of food and water we have consumed from nature and nature will take this back one day.

Mind - an imitation of what is around you, it's just that you don't imitate one person; you take bits and pieces of hundred people and make yourself. The rest is just hallucination based on these info you have gathered from outside.

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

How do you say there is a creator?

Cosmic energy which is present in us and every atoms in the cosmos

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

What is 'religion'

Man made belief system based on the culture and environment in which one is born, these belief systems and reality are completely different aspects.

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

How do you ascertain that it is useless?

I did not imply that. In my view Religion/morals/ethics good education as to how one may live "socially”, but not spiritually
From: anbu_kathir on 11th December 2012 06:09 PM [Full View]

Thank you for your answers.

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

The Cosmic energy within us and ever single atoms in the cosmos.

Let us leave the body and mind for now. You answered this for "What is this 'you'"? But here again, you say, "within us". So I must take that your answer says "What we are is (cosmic energy) within us". Isn't this statement suffering from circular logic?. Again, I must ask - what is this "within" and who is this "us" ?

Cosmic energy which is present in us and every atoms in the cosmos

You answered this for - "How do you know that there is a creator? ". The question is, " How do you know? ", not what you mean by the creator.

Man made belief system based on the culture and environment in which one is born, these belief systems and reality are completely different aspects.

How do you know religion is man-made? How do you differentiate something that is man-made and something that is not man-made?

I did not imply that. In my view Religion/morals/ethics good education as to how one may live "socially”, but not spiritually

Where is the line of division between social life and spiritual life? What differentiates the two?

Thanks. If you wish not to delve into these questions, its OK. But I put them forth simply because passing opinions is easily done, but thinking is difficult. Its seems to me that there is not much use by passing opinions (i.e., when we say 'according to me....'), especially on forums like this. But if you have a well thought out and logically coherent viewpoint, then there will always be people who will appreciate it and get the inspiration to inculcate whatever good things you have said.

LOve and Light.
From: PARAMASHIVAN on 12th December 2012 03:04 PM [Full View]

Dear Kathir

Sorry, you sound a bit offended by my posts, sorry that was not my intention.

I will reply in detail later on (busy at work) ..
From: anbu_kathir on 13th December 2012 07:26 AM [Full View]

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Dear Kathir

Sorry, you sound a bit offended by my posts, sorry that was not my intention.

I will reply in detail later on (busy at work) ..

No not at all! I am sorry if I came across as a bit stern. My intention was to merely ask questions, because there seemed to be some logical gaps in your answers. If we are to rise above ideologies, we must have answers that appeal to the rational mind.

Love and Light.
From: PARAMASHIVAN on 24th September 2019 02:07 AM [Full View]

Wow bring backs memories after almost 7 years !!! It is so true and strange how time (Mahakaal) leaves an impact ..

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