Hinduism, Initial concept of Shiva, Trinity...

[anbu_kathir]

Kathir

I did not say Bakthi was a bad thing at all, all I said was in order for one to reach "Ultimate" you need a combination of bakthi(devotion) , Gnana (intellect) Kriya(Life energies) and Karma (actions) . By one of these accept alone it is virtually impossible to reach the Ultimate, (IMHO). Imagine all these were four wheels of a car, in order to reach the destination, you will need all these 4 wheels to work simultaneously right?

If one decides to go in a different direction, will you reach your destination? No right? This is what I meant

Frankly, I think you need much more groundwork to establish what you are saying, i.e., "a combination of bhakthi, jnana, kriya, karma". It is like saying "to succeed in life, one needs a combination of skill, intelligence, action, passion for life, etc." It is a very loose statement, so I cannot reject it nor can I accept it as a perfect statement, because it will not stand its ground when examined in the light of the scriptures. Loose statements like these are dangerous in philosophy, and are practically not very useful in spirituality either, for it leaves the individual in a dilemma as to what and how to pursue these, and moreover what exactly are we hoping to attain by their pursuit.

The Hindu system, according to the scriptures, is simple and uncomplicated. There are two ways only, the way of Action (Karma Yoga) and the way of Self-Knowledge (Jnana Yoga). For a Jiva, spirituality begins with Karma Yoga, which leads to Jnana Yoga, which finally leads to Jnana or Self-Knowledge, which confers liberation. A *mixing* of the paths is actually not possible at all. Bhakthi is needed in each of these paths, but according to the mindset of the individual it will mean different things at different points in his spiritual evolution. This succession of paths and the reaching of the ultimate goal takes several lifetimes.

Anyway, my point was that Bhakthi towards a personal god (God as an external compassionate entity who is responsible for the cycle of Creation, and who justly delivers experiences to the Jivas according to their Karma) is highly recommended in Hinduism. Whether it is "enough" for liberation or not, that question we can bother about later.

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

My opinion was not based on any scriptures, just a general opinion by me. My views are not "entirely" based in Hinduism. Besides, if one follows our scriptures and Vedas, it will be impossible as we have infinite no of scriptures/Vedas!

[anbu_kathir]

My opinion was not based on any scriptures, just a general opinion by me. My views are not "entirely" based in Hinduism. Besides, if one follows our scriptures and Vedas, it will be impossible as we have infinite no of scriptures/Vedas!

Scriptures are infinite, correct, but their essence can be conveyed in finite number of words. The Bhagavad Gita is the visible evidence that we have.

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Coming to the devotion aspect.....

Why is a Deity/Object/Picture required to invoke bhakthi? Isn't that "Bakthi" happening within you? I guess you need an external stimulant to invoke such feelings

[anbu_kathir]

Coming to the devotion aspect.....

Why is a Deity/Object/Picture required to invoke bhakthi? Isn't that "Bakthi" happening within you? I guess you need an external stimulant to invoke such feelings

It is easiest to love a person who is near and dear to you, who cares for you, who provides for you, who comforts you in times of difficulty, is it not? The Lord is such a person. He or she is invoked in the idol or picture and that is loved. When our loved ones die, don't we keep pictures of them in our homes and reminisce our good times with them? Is it not easier to do it that way, rather than throw away all external objects that remind us of them and simply say that "That remembrance is happening within you, so why do you need these objects?".

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

It is easiest to love a person who is near and dear to you, who cares for you, who provides for you, who comforts you in times of difficulty, is it not? .

Yes, but these feeling/thoughts are happening within you not with the person whom you think loves/cares for you. All I am saying is such feelings are invoked by external stimulant, but these feelings you get is based within you, it is not out side but inside. So to conclude it, the Cosmic energy/Creator/GOD is within you not outside as per hallucination created by your mind based on the info you gathered from your sensory organs + imagination of your mind

[anbu_kathir]

Yes, but these feeling/thoughts are happening within you not with the person whom you think loves/cares for you. All I am saying is such feelings are invoked by external stimulant, but these feelings you get is based within you, it is not out side but inside. So to conclude it, the Cosmic energy/Creator/GOD is within you not outside as per hallucination created by your mind based on the info you gathered from your sensory organs + imagination of your mind

Everything that we know or understand is based on info gathered from senses and the thoughts of our mind. So this way of coming to the conclusion that "god is within us" is also within the mind. How are we to believe it?

The issue here is that most people are unable to view themselves as the source of all emotional support. Why should they not lean on a perfect and compassionate and all powerful entity? This is much better than leaning on the worldly objects or people for support. The existence of this entity is known through faith in scripture, in the elders in the family, and in all the masters and saints who have witnessed this deity. Why should one not trust these?

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

The issue here is that most people are unable to view themselves as the source of all emotional support.

Thanks , this is exactly what I have been trying to convey here, and to be honest it took me a while to figure this one for my self through rough experiences thrown at me in the name of "life".

[asiqwevob]

The vedas have been mentioned, but is Lord Siva mentioned in the Vedas? I don't mean as 'Rudra', I mean as Lord Siva/Shiva/Sivan etc.
What about other sources, such as the Agamas/Agamams, Tirumantiram, etc?

I know Tirumantiram is available in English at least.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

The vedas have been mentioned, but is Lord Siva mentioned in the Vedas? I don't mean as 'Rudra', I mean as Lord Siva/Shiva/Sivan etc.
What about other sources, such as the Agamas/Agamams, Tirumantiram, etc?

Which Vedas are you talking about ?

I know Tirumantiram is available in English at least.

Source pls ?

Thanks