What is the future of Hindustani / Carnatic Music
Topic started by abhijit jain on Tue Jan 25 04:16:45 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
How are these genres going to evolve?
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Wed Feb 16 10:31:29 EST 2000
Good point nAdOpAsaka!! I completely agree with you!
Devotion (bhakthi) is considered as one of the high roads that one can take to attain salvation (moksha). As long as that vedic/upanishadic concept remains alive, C.Music is going to have religious overtones!! And, trust me, that ain't gonna kill C.Music. ;-)
- From: D (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Wed Feb 16 11:31:09 EST 2000
>Devotion (bhakthi) is considered as one of the
>high roads that one can take to attain salvation
>(moksha).
Does this mean that all raagas are meant for
Bhakti?
I agree that some raagas are rich in the bhakti
element and are appropriate for religious
compositions.
How about raga Megh which is related to nature?
- From: balaji (@ animals.uswest.com)
on: Wed Feb 16 12:05:07 EST 2000
Hi Nado,
I will get back to u some time later.. a lil busy week.. sorry
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Wed Feb 16 14:52:45 EST 2000
>Does this mean that all raagas are meant for
>Bhakti?
I didn't say that. ;-)
It is foolish to say that *all* rAgAs evoke bhakthi in the hearts of men (in a gender non-specific sense). Even krithis that are set in sringAra (love) rasa will be in nAyakan/nAyaki bhAvam. Examples abound in AndAl's pAsuram.
C.Music is more composition (krithi) oriented and most compositions are religious in nature. Why? B'cos of the reasons mentioned in my earlier post that bhakthi leads to salvation. You should listen to Rajaji's speech before MS' bhaja gOvindam (cassettes are available commercially)
>How about raga Megh which is related to nature?
I do not know the equivalent rAgam of Megh in Carnatic Music. Whatever it may be and whatever the mood it evokes, compositions (if any) in that would mostly be religious and all sorts of Gods will be involved -- like it or not ;-)
BTW, secularism does not mean agnosticism/atheism ;-)
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp9.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Feb 16 15:13:25 EST 2000
>How about raga Megh which is related to nature?
Here we go again with the mood music merchants.
Instead of simply ( 'just') glorifying the many and universal folk tunes (really, why gild the lily ? ) such as monsoons, tinkle of cows bells, birdsong etc. etc. etc, I suggest a melody (hate to call this a raga ) be developed for the true, natural state of Extreme Sexual Arousal e.g. coitus or simply being horny. And I don't mean the platonic union and bliss amply described by Tyagaraja. I mean the raw and pounding 'Horizontal Mambo', the physical ACT.
Such a development would 'transcend' all manner of boundaries and also probably have good international record-tape sales. It offers infinite possibilities and all manner of tempo and plenty of scope. It can be a short piece or a very long one. A suitable name for this 'Mishran' could be Nut-Narayani or Nut-Ananda. Subtle shades could be used to explore the new raga when same-sex union occurs !
It is easy to see why such types of visceral ideas do not ascend in the Carnatic tradition.
- From: D (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Wed Feb 16 16:44:20 EST 2000
Nadopasaka, If you are a lover of any music,
please use good words. Especially in a
forum discussing about Indian Classical Music
of which Carnatic is a part.
If Music is not able to bring a man to goodness.
Such a music has no use.
I am not against Carnatic, just wanted
clarification on certain aspects.
- From: Nadopasaka (@ aappp45.buffnet.net)
on: Wed Feb 16 18:36:59 EST 2000
I don't believe there is a single non-good word in my post. There is a somewhat mature idea, with regard to the emerging role of feelings, emotions, moods that has begun to run amok in some music. And such an unfettered music may indeed have no use.
Sometimes only extreme puritanism can keep this in check. I hope you got my point. Sorry for any offense.
- From: Devadas (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Thu Feb 17 09:45:59 EST 2000
>Sometimes only extreme puritanism can keep this
>in check. I hope you got my point. Sorry for
>any offense.
Are you claiming that C. Music is an unchanging
measuring rod against which all Indian music
systems can be measured and percentage of
deviation evaluated?
Is there any evidence or proof for the
claimed purity of present day C.Music?
-D
- From: Devadas (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Thu Feb 17 10:01:16 EST 2000
Balaji:
>I have said that the current generation dont have >the urge or patience to LEARN THE MUSIC, by
>putting lot efforts. But, I didn't say that U
>should have patience to listen
But listening and thinking are part of the
learning process. There is no learning with
out listening and thinking!
-D
- From: Sree (@ 134.243.96.152)
on: Thu Feb 17 11:06:47 EST 2000
Devadas
May I urge you to read all our responses to your queries in a very calm setting, digest what is being said rather than shooting randomly in the dark. Please.....
There is a fine line being inquisitive (which is good) and being argumentative (which is moronic ;-)
- From: Nadopasaka (@ ahppp44.buffnet.net)
on: Thu Feb 17 12:35:14 EST 2000
D-
The tenets of Sampradaya and paddhati may be difficult to understand if your only access is through 60 min. tapes.
Many times there is inter-generational sharing in families etc. ( Guess what, it is not always the kutchery either and it has been going on for much longer . ) You also need to get away from the narrow view of musician as entertainer. There are some families elders who might give you some good advice and insight on the Tradition. But you won't get far if you are interested only in comparisons, which appear again in your last posts. And you certainly won't get anywhere if you continue in the role of ambassador for the Empire of the Senses.
I seriously believe this is enough, how do you say, sawaal-jawaab ?
- From: Devadas (@ daprx02new.ext.nokia.com)
on: Thu Feb 17 15:36:33 EST 2000
>if your only access is through 60 min. tapes.
Nadopasaka,
You are assuming many things. You assumed that
I listen only to tapes of certain length or
I do not have contacts with families with
knowledge in music and many more. I understand
your emotions.
You didn't give a proof to your claim
on the purity of a music system which bifurcated
from ancient traditions due to the efforts
of Venkatmukhi who introduced a new "mela"
scheme in 1660 through "Chaturdandiprakashika".
Bahamani sultans brought Sufis from Delhi to
Gulbarga, and the Sufis' influence spread to
Vijayanagar. It was through those Sufis that
South Indian scholars started to explain musical
scales in terms of "mela", instead of the
earlier scheme of "grama" and "murcchana".
In H. Music, such a scientific scheme was
introduced much later, in the 20th century,
by Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande. Before this the
archaic concepts of raag, ragini, putr-raagas
dominated.
Note that there are many H. Ragas in C.Music.
On your stand against the importance of emotions
in music, here is what I have to say.
"rAga" is a Sanskrit word which means "colour,
or passion". It is linked to the Sanskrit
word "ranj" which means "to colour".
Raga in music is an acoustic method of
colouring the mind of the listener with an
emotion. Only an expert artist can do this.
I agree with you that it is very much possible
to sing a raga with theoretical accuracy and
at the same time conveying no emotion. Some
people like such renditions since it is
intellectualy satisfying to the mathematically
oriented. There is absolutely nothing wrong
in it.
But don't say that that is the purest available.
-D
- From: Nadopasaka (@ adppp43.buffnet.net)
on: Fri Feb 18 02:01:20 EST 2000
D-
You say that you understood my 'emotions'.
Please suggest some 'purest available' examples of your mood music for the pure passion (ranj-raunch) I described earlier, your pious and prim protests notwithstanding. I need some earthy release periodically with all this intellectual Carnatic stuff. I don't have any particular kinkiness or fetish but your selections by expert artists ( sultans-sufis-ustads-pandits, whatever), who don't or can't know that, can probably provide all shades based on their experiences in different Gharanas. I may be anal-retentive the day I listen to this, but then again maybe not.
Please give the Thaath or mela where relevant, although these mela schemes are a dime a dozen.
CD's , 60 min tapes or even music videos, if you feel these are applicable to enhance the experience, are fine. Thanks.
P.S. The Eskimos are also 'puritanical' about their music but they don't say it is the purest available. You can be the same way with your Hindustani music too. Use an English dictionary when you think you might have trouble with a word.
- From: Ramakrishnan (@ )
on: Thu Feb 28 13:39:25
Nadopasaka,
That was quite authoritative and a shade egoistic, I think. But you've put it in a succint manner. And Mr. Devdas, pls. may you attempt to understand that C.Music is much much more complex and tradition-bound than H.Music. For realising the greatness of C.Music, you have to climb down the ladder of H.Music and then compare the two. For example, when Nadopasaka says "mango is very sweet", you say "but mango is not as red as apple is. Nor is it white inside. How can it be sweet?" You should leave this approach and enjoy the mango that is C.Music at the same time enjoying H.Music also. Now dont say there is no reference to mango and apple in nadopasaks's posts.
- From: Ramakrishnan (@ )
on: Thu Feb 28 13:39:44
Nadopasaka,
That was quite authoritative and a shade egoistic, I think. But you've put it in a succint manner. And Mr. Devdas, pls. may you attempt to understand that C.Music is much much more complex and tradition-bound than H.Music. For realising the greatness of C.Music, you have to climb down the ladder of H.Music and then compare the two. For example, when Nadopasaka says "mango is very sweet", you say "but mango is not as red as apple is. Nor is it white inside. How can it be sweet?" You should leave this approach and enjoy the mango that is C.Music at the same time enjoying H.Music also. Now dont say there is no reference to mango and apple in nadopasaks's posts.
- From: Ramakrishnan (@ )
on: Thu Feb 28 13:40:11
Nadopasaka,
That was quite authoritative and a shade egoistic, I think. But you've put it in a succint manner. And Mr. Devdas, pls. may you attempt to understand that C.Music is much much more complex and tradition-bound than H.Music. For realising the greatness of C.Music, you have to climb down the ladder of H.Music and then compare the two. For example, when Nadopasaka says "mango is very sweet", you say "but mango is not as red as apple is. Nor is it white inside. How can it be sweet?" You should leave this approach and enjoy the mango that is C.Music at the same time enjoying H.Music also. Now dont say there is no reference to mango and apple in nadopasaks's posts.
- From: Ramakrishnan (@ 203.197.135.101)
on: Thu Feb 28 13:43:51
Sree Rama Ramethi Rame Raame manorame
sahasranama thathulyam rama nama varanane
Sree Rama Ramethi Rame Raame manorame
sahasranama thathulyam rama nama varanane
Sree Rama Ramethi Rame Raame manorame
sahasranama thathulyam rama nama varanane
Sorry about the three times above folks!
- From: Manju (@ )
on: Sun Apr 25 04:52:22
Hi all,
I am new to this site. A wonderful forum indeed. Find a lotz o scholerly ppl having deep discussions abt one of my most favourable subject, i.e., music. I find this really engaging myself to bring me out of the cultural isolation I am suffering in my setting.....
Greetings to u all folks..... keep in touch..... i will be frequenting this site very often in future...
take care
Manju
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