Rahul Dravid : The Wall

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Topic started by Sanguine Sridhar on Fri Apr 14 16:53:07 2006. [Full View]

Lets discuss here about the Wall, Dravid!!

Thanks,
Sridhar

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From: Bala (Karthik) on Wed Nov 18 1:34:47 2009.

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ajithfederer wrote:

From June 20, 1996, to the present Test with Sri Lanka, India have had 135 matches. Dravid has played in 134 of them. He missed one game in 2005 with a fever (thanks to Ranja and Praveen in comments) but otherwise has had no tweaked thingies, no sprained whatsits, no snuffles and coughs, no selectorial whims, no missing the bus, no disciplinary breaches, no excuses. Tendulkar, by contrast, has played in only 121 of those games. Even gods can have mortal moments.

Dravid's record of 93 straight games since his Test debut is remarkable, beaten only by Adam Gilchrist. His near-perfect 13-year streak compares with Cal Ripken, the baseball player, who went 17 seasons (and more than 2,500 games) without missing a match for the Baltimore Orioles. Allan Border is another one to note: he went 15 years without missing a game, although that wasn't from debut.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/line_and_length/2009/11/dravids-longevity-more-impressive-than-tendulkars.html

ABH wrote:

Err, your reasoning is wrong for the following reasons:
1)Till 01/01/2003: The big 3 :SRT 8811@ 57.6 31 hun, BCL 7572@49.5 18 hun; Pont 4246 @ 48.8 14 hun Dravid: 118 inn;5614@53.5;14 100s . After mid 2007 again Tendulkar trumps Ponting and Dravid.
2) After the 2003 WC-2006, here’s a short bio of Tendulkar:
April 2003: Hand surgery. Most of the next 2 seasons affected by Tennis elbow. At one point in 2004 could not pick up a bat for 6 months. Prematurely brought back after attempting conservative treatment for tennis elbow after India lost the first 2 home tests to Aus. With the inevitable result-more pain and a forced surgery . May 2005: elbow surgery. April 2006: shoulder surgery.
Tendulkar has had some injuries before but they were not all compressed into a short period so recurring. (1998: back injury, 2001 broken toe). So, you have time to get back your rhythm after injury, provided you don’t again get another one.
So, in the period 2003-07 , it is not ONLY the pontings,Laras,dravids who massively outscored Tendulkar , but just about every Tom,Dick and Hussey. This was probably the easiest time for batting in cricket history.
3)Infact if you consider only the 90s Tendulkar avg. almost 60 with Ponting and Lara less than 50!
4)Obviously at his best Tendulkar was the best. That too at a particularly difficult time for batting. Plus you need add ODIs to the workload. I’m afraid in modern day cricket you simply cannot segregate Tests and ODIs. They are joined at the hip. Not a single modern day great has forsaken Tests for ODIs.

Dravid and co. have not played International cricket since they were as young as Tendulkar and so definitely have escaped some of the incredible wear and tear that Tendulkar has gone through. The stats merely affirm what we fans already know. To repeat the other guys only match up to Tendulkar when Tendulkar is injured. And again to go through the entire gamut of injuries, much more matches, many more ODI runs (don’t forget some 7000 ODI runs (repeat 7000!) ..Plus intangibles like obscene pressure etc….Tendulkar is simply a Gulliver among Lilliputians. As Roebuck states in a recent article, stats cannot quite capture the picture as you are attempting to do.

ABH further wrote:

Here’s some further stats:
Dravids career 13 yrs 5 mths so far:
Tests: 135 mtc, 234 inn, 11000 @ 53.1, 27 Hun.
ODIs: 339 mtc, 10765 @ 39.4, 12 Hun.
13 yrs 5 mths into Tendulkars career from debut, till 15 Apr 2003.
India played 479 international matches out of which Tendulkar played 419.
Tests: 105 mtc, 169 inn, 8811 @ 57.6, 31 Hun.
i.e. a whopping 65 inn (!!) less than Dravid at a similar stage.
ODIs: 333 mtc, 13134 @ 44.8; 37 Hun.

Extrapolating his avg and hundreds at that point we would get 65x57.6=3744 runs. 8811+3744=12555 runs.
Plus 12 hundreds more, making it 43.
All this in 2003!
So, simply due to the much fewer matches he played in the first 13 yrs he gets “penalized”. As mentioned adfinitum, from 2003-07 it was then one almost endless injury spree. 2003 in particular was annus miserabilis.
Imagine Tendulkars aggregates if he had been fit for those 4 yrs (age approx 30-34) when all and sundry were piling on obscene runs. In fact we have probably missed out on the best of Tendulkar- weird though it may seem.
(my last post! Hopefully! Thanks for putting up with me)

From debut to the above date India played 513 international matches.Tendulkar played 447. In Dravids career to date India has played 593 matches of which Dravid has played 474 matches.
As can be seen, essentially Dravid was “lucky” that he got a much greater amount of Tests to play at his peak and injury free (50 Tests innings MORE than Tendulkar in his first 13 years!!- again essentially approx 2003-07, and so at a relatively easier time than the tougher 90s, where only 3 batsmen avg.50+ for the entire decade!) than Tendulkar.
So, as with all stats the relevant context and subtext is absolutely crucial, otherwise it is relatively to spin just about any tale of ones choosing.
Dravid is a great and very fine batsman- no doubt. But Tendulkar is in a class of one.
There’s lots more stats and other subjective stuff but I guess I ve got my point across!

From: Plum on Wed Nov 18 1:47:04 2009. [Full View]

Bala,

Excellent points - I am a big fan of Rahul myself(is maddy around? Freudian interpretation paNNa aarabichuruvAr...) but it's got to be Sachin & Brian for the top batsmen stakes of the past few generations. Ponting, Kallis and Rahul come only after this with Sivanarayana Chandiyar etc bringing up the next tier. I'd rate Rahul above Kallis easily for the match winning knocks. Due to my bias, I'd also rate him above Ricky dude, especially in test matches. I reckon an objective analysis of their careers will lead an impartial observer to the same conclusion viz a viz Rahul Dravidan vs Ricardo Ponting. The WC 2003 100 in the finals obscures Ponting's many flaws.
1. How many single-handle fourth innings centuries he has - I mean, he has 3 unbeaten 4th innings 100s in victory but - has he ever perfromed like Sachin did in Chepauk for that 136? The results shouldnt obscure the fact that Sachin actually almost won a single handed battle there while Ricky has no such effort in his resume - win or lose. He is, at best, Jaishankar in Apoorva SagodharargaL, never a Amrish Puri in Mr India. I mean, forget the subjective part of this- even objectively show me one such winning or losing effort from Mr Ricardo?
2. Well documented weakness against Durby. I mean, it's Durby, for Chris Broad's sake! Someone with that in his resume can never cross the boundary from "very good" to "great", I say!
3. Suspect in swinging and seaming conditions - I say, where are the "114s in Perth", for instance, not to mention those wonderful 150s and 170s in South Africa. What is Ricardo's record in South Africa when not propped up by the Gillys and Haydens and Martyns and Waughs? What is his record in England?

I say, Ricardo doesnt even measure up to the Wall, let alone God.

From: Bala (Karthik) on Wed Nov 18 7:46:38 2009.

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One more exchange in the comments section of the quoted article

Patrick Kidd wrote:

I guess my main point Abh was simply that for anyone to miss only one game in 13 years is very impressive and to do so while maintaining a batting average as good as anyone else of the time even more so (albeit against easier bowling). Sure, a lot of that is good luck, but also a testament to RD's fitness.

ABH wrote:

Allright,
Then again if you consider 13 yrs 5 mths from his debut (Till 15 Apr 2003) India played 108 Tests and Tendulkar played in 105 of those. So, he missed 3. Dravid missed 1.
But I don’t think the next 7 yrs are going to be quite so good for Dravid!

From: Plum on Wed Nov 18 8:56:33 2009. [Full View]

Bala, Rate and rank:
Ricardo, Rahulan, Kaali(s) paya, Chandiyan, Gary kirustuvan(oru kaalathula he was compared with sachin )...

From: Plum on Wed Nov 18 10:08:50 2009.

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Rahulan wrote:

I would be the first one to admit that I'm not a complete player," he told me during that first chat. "There are very few. You have to make your own assessments, set your own standards. Sachin [Tendulkar] and [Brian] Lara are in a different league. For the rest of us mere mortals, it's a constant learning process. I know my strengths, just as I know my limitations. In the end, you have to be effective and choose a method that works for you and the team over a period of time."

I like the way he didnt even mention Ricardo.

From: Bala (Karthik) on Wed Nov 18 11:15:37 2009. [Full View]

Plum wrote:

Bala, Rate and rank:
Ricardo, Rahulan, Kaali(s) paya, Chandiyan, Gary kirustuvan(oru kaalathula he was compared with sachin )...

Plum,
Rendu visayam:
1) Paakka pidikkakkoodiya batsme
2) 'Best', 'great' batsmen - relatively more objective

Idhu renduthulayume Sachin/Lara top adhu vera vishayam.

Between George Bush and Dravidan, i like to watch the former more than Dravid. What an audacious pull shot he has. That apart i would rate Dravid higher than Ponting - for obvious reasons

Next Kaali paya

[indha tharunathula statistics enna solludhu nu therila. Maybe the numbers would render my 2nd/3rd rung ranking "naansense", i don't know]

As for Soundarapaal and Kirustuvan ( ), rendume sariyana blade. Naathu nadumbodhu kayya pudichu straighta groundukku koottitu vandhutaanga pola irukku Siva Narayanan Saundarapaal-a. Innum konjam kuthunaan-na Vadivel comedy madhiri thanni peerikittu vandhurum. And commando madhiri mai-a vera poosikittu!
Useless digression apart, neenga yaravadhu stats kudutheenganna athan padiye poven. Uninterested to rank them.
[Gary was in a stronger team and Soundarapaal was in a weaker team nu mattum nenaikkaren]

From: Plum on Wed Nov 18 11:18:41 2009.

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Quote:

Naathu nadumbodhu straighta koottitu vandhutaanga pola irukku Siva Narayanan Saundarapaal-a. Innum konjam kuthunaan-na Vadivel comedy madhiri thanni peerikittu vandhurum. And commando madhiri mai-a vera poosikittu!

With your kind permission, copying this to 'that' thread

From: podaskie on Wed Nov 18 23:56:25 2009. [Full View]

VinodKumar's wrote:

Was there any fight between dravid and yuvaraj during compaq cup final???

just an argument, not a fight...
From: podaskie on Wed Nov 18 23:57:23 2009. [Full View]

Higher than The Wall!

At a Thai restaurant in Islamabad, after the first day’s play in the final Test in 2004, Rahul Dravid politely declined to stay for dessert, saying he needed to sleep because he had to bat the “whole day tomorrow”. Not early, not in the morning; the whole day.

It led to a few involuntary sniggers at the dinner table, but Dravid had chosen his words carefully. Ten not out overnight, he was unbeaten on 134 when stumps were drawn the following evening. And then, for good measure, he batted almost the whole of the next day as well, finishing on a career-best 270. It wasn’t the most attractive knock, and not nearly his most fluent — in fact, at 12 hours and 20 minutes it was the longest innings by an Indian player ever — but Dravid had ensured, almost single-handedly, that India won their first Test series in Pakistan.

Adelaide, Kolkata, Leeds, Kingston — he will be remembered when, years from now, people talk about what had happened in those cities at the turn of the century. For, scratch a famous Indian victory, and you will uncover a Dravid gem underneath.

Through his career, he has been associated with hard, unwavering grit with a bat in his hands and soft, natural refinement off the field of play. It’s been hard to pick between the great batsman and the perfect gentleman. But, as the French philosopher Voltaire said, “The best way to be boring is to leave nothing out.” So, while Dravid invoked deep admiration and steadfast affection, he did not immediately move fans as much as some of his more naturally attractive peers from this generation of astonishing batsmen.

Perhaps history will judge his true place in Indian cricket, and put him higher than the fifth or sixth place he occupies on the list of most experts. Perhaps history alone will finally realise that “The Wall” is too simplistic a nickname for a batsman of his ilk.

I’ve always believed that Dravid’s famous sobriquet is completely misplaced. As a batsman, he is skillful and prudent, with far more character than a block of brick and mortar. Maybe, at times, he stood firmly like a defensive barrier. But they weren’t necessarily his best moments. There were more occasions when he attacked the very heart of the opposition. “The Wall” barely begins to describe him, so how can it sum him up?

There was a time when Dravid was in grave danger of being consumed by his own quest for technical perfection. Former Australian captain Ian Chappell once said he needed to be told that matches were won not by hours but by runs or wickets.

In those days, when he did manage to get a big score, he was invariably overshadowed by a colleague. Right from his debut 95 at Lord’s in 1996 (when Ganguly cracked 131) to the 148 at Headingley in 2002 (when Tendulkar trumped him with a 193). But at The Oval in the following Test, Dravid smashed a flawless 217. The next highest score was Tendulkar’s 54. The spell was broken, and there was no looking back after that.

This week, seven years later, there were glimpses of the Dravid we know so well in his 177 at Ahmedabad. But the innings was different because it seemed to have the fluency that usually comes only with abandon. Beaten by Dammika Prasad midway through his knock, he hammered the next ball down the ground for four. The Dravid of old would’ve never done that — he would’ve scarcely scored a run for the next few minutes, cross with himself for the momentary lapse of concentration.

Treated unkindly by the national selectors with his sudden inclusion and abrupt exclusion from the one-day team in recent weeks, one might say it was Dravid’s way of showing he should not be trifled with. But, knowing him, that was perhaps the last thing on his mind. He is too clever a student of the art of batting to let anything come in the way of the next ball, next over, next session.

Dravid fell early on the second morning of the Test, having already made a statement with his most entertaining century since Adelaide 2003 — removing not just the scars of the recent one-day snub but also, to an extent, of his only modestly successful stint as captain that ended suddenly in 2007.

The innings was significant for all those reasons. But, situationally speaking, there was nothing new. India was in trouble, and Dravid, its great No 3, batted the whole day again.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/higher-than-the-wall/543346/1
From: VinodKumar's on Thu Nov 19 0:41:07 2009. [Full View]

TFS podaskie ...

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